D&D 5E Am I missing something about Conjure Animal

Werebat · Apr 20, 2017

Prakriti said:
A *CREATIVE* DM can find ways around broken and/or unfun mechanics. Therefore, broken and/or unfun mechanics are perfectly acceptable!

NOW you're catchin' on!

(Seriously, I *HATE* that old chestnut with a passion. It's always used by the smarmiest of min/max twerps online. It's just obnoxious.)

Speaking of obnoxious, there IS an easy fix to Conjure Animals that I don't believe anyone has mentioned yet.

The player chooses the hit dice of the animal, but not the specific animal conjured.

Now a *creative* DM can always parse the spell's wording creatively. Does the player get to choose:

"8 creatures of CR 1/2 (or less)"

or:

"8 creatures of CR (1/2 or less)"?

If a creative DM parses the sentence in the latter way, this can play out:

Druid: "I cast Conjure Animals and summon 8 animals of CR 1/2!"

DM: "That's 1/2 OR LESS. Poof! 8 white mice appear!"

Druid: "WHAT? That's total BS!"

DM (smarmy): "Read the spell."

Druid: "What the... OK, make it one animal of CR 2 then!"

DM: "Sure -- oh, that's CR 2 OR LESS. Only ONE white mouse, then."

Mistwell · Apr 20, 2017

Hemlock said:
BTW, here is a neat set of random tables for Conjure Animals: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TAUqgYfi4gtDC6WOH41Y2JW-Wjh6NOx-Oq-D92pM4EM/

It gives a different random table for each CR type and terrain.

I love that. I wish it were also an electronic tool. In fact, that would be a good project for the OGRE tools here at EnWorld.

Ovinomancer · Apr 20, 2017

So...

Reading this thread gave me a sudden inspiration -- the problem with Conjure spells in general is that they add combatants to the game and this slows things down/frustrates players and/or DMs, yeah? So, maybe rewrite the CWA spell to not summon discrete animals, but instead provide more utility --

Let's say the spell creates an area, maybe 20x20, of various woodland creatures - a sudden congregation of many local animals, types don't matter. The area causes an effect, depending on caster commands. The caster can move the area and/or change the command every turn as a bonus action. The area counts a difficult terrain for enemies. Commands could be:

Distract: enemies in the area are buffeted by the creatures (birds flying in their faces, rats running up their pants, etc) and suffer disadvantage on all attack rolls and perception checks. Spells cast in the area may be disrupted unless a concentration check (DC spell) is passed first.

Attack: enemies in the area are attacked by the animals. They must make a DC Constitution save (STR, DEX, whatever, just spitballing) or take 4d6 damage, half on a save. Maybe reduce that damage and add a rider for special animals, like poison in swamps, or something?

Defend: allies in the area gain temporary hit points so long as they remain in the area. Maybe 10? Refreshes every round? Or maybe just gain resistance, but that seems strong.

Utility (for lack of a better term right now): the animals aid you by clearing natural terrain or doing some other task that fits with what a swarm of animals can do within the time frame. This would give the spell an out of combat use.

Sure, this is really rough, but I like it and think I'm going to work on it some more.

MechaTarrasque · Apr 20, 2017

Ovinomancer said:
So...

Reading this thread gave me a sudden inspiration -- the problem with Conjure spells in general is that they add combatants to the game and this slows things down/frustrates players and/or DMs, yeah? So, maybe rewrite the CWA spell to not summon discrete animals, but instead provide more utility --

Let's say the spell creates an area, maybe 20x20, of various woodland creatures - a sudden congregation of many local animals, types don't matter. The area causes an effect, depending on caster commands. The caster can move the area and/or change the command every turn as a bonus action. The area counts a difficult terrain for enemies. Commands could be:

Distract: enemies in the area are buffeted by the creatures (birds flying in their faces, rats running up their pants, etc) and suffer disadvantage on all attack rolls and perception checks. Spells cast in the area may be disrupted unless a concentration check (DC spell) is passed first.

Attack: enemies in the area are attacked by the animals. They must make a DC Constitution save (STR, DEX, whatever, just spitballing) or take 4d6 damage, half on a save. Maybe reduce that damage and add a rider for special animals, like poison in swamps, or something?

Defend: allies in the area gain temporary hit points so long as they remain in the area. Maybe 10? Refreshes every round? Or maybe just gain resistance, but that seems strong.

Utility (for lack of a better term right now): the animals aid you by clearing natural terrain or doing some other task that fits with what a swarm of animals can do within the time frame. This would give the spell an out of combat use.

Sure, this is really rough, but I like it and think I'm going to work on it some more.

That isn't a bad thought. There are two other advantages to this idea then you have presented:

1) You can preserve the scaling if the swarm's (for lack of a better term) size increased every other level. So maybe a medium area at 3rd level, a large at 5th level, a huge at 7th, and if you spend a 9th level spell slot on this, you get a colossal swarm (which is a pretty cool visual).

2) This same logic can work for conjure woodland beings, conjure minor elementals, and conjure lesser demons [from the old black magic UA] (obviously some potential for different commands or effects). It would make things like conjure cherubims/minor celestials or conjure construct work gang easier (for one thing WotC wouldn't have to make stats for minor celestials).

The only limitations I would put on it are that the swarm should do less damage than insect plague cast at the same level (both "swarm spells" but you are sacrificing damage for utility), and defend might be better as provide partial cover (also makes defend better as you cast at higher levels).

Hussar · Apr 22, 2017

Henry said:
I've been playing 5e for about the last two years and have yet to see any of the summon spells cast at our table. I'm playing a Moon Duid now, so I guess I'll get to see what all the fuss is about at level 5. However I won't be casting for more than 4 critters at a time, because I don't want a bunch of ineffective ankle-biters on the battlefield, anyway.

Yeah, I gotta go with this.

You're a 5th level party and the druid is dropping 8 CR 1/4 creatures? And this is a problem? Why aren't your baddies just ignoring them? Wall of Elk? Really? 10 AC and 13 HP? At worst they soak one attack from one baddy. Blat, poof. Never minding anything that has an area attack splats them.

But, let's compare shall we? A fireball is dealing 8d6 damage, so, 28/14 damage to (hopefully) multiple targets. We'll peg the baseline at 6 targets. Seems a reasonable number. Half save, half don't. 84+42=126 points of damage from a single spell. Typically.

Our Elk have an attack bonus of +5 and deal d6+3 per round. 8 attacks, probably about 4 hit. So, 4d6+12 points of damage per round. At 26 points of damage per round, it takes five rounds before our conjure animals spell equals the output of a single fireball.

Really not seeing the issue with power here.

Now, time at the table? Sure. That's an issue. But, that's just a learning curve issue.

schnee · Apr 22, 2017

Those eight times the enemies attacked the wolves instead of you? Eight actions soaked that didn't potentially case you damage.

Also: Wolves are great because the pack tactics give advantage to all attackers, with that chance to knock prone. For lower-level mooks, that can be really effective, so you can focus on the big bad - and for a few bigger monsters, rolling 4-5 times each with advantage every round eventually pays off.

Constrictor snakes are great against casters - their ACs are never that great, and if you sic it on them while the Wizard has darkness going? Blindsight + advantage means that caster gets grappled/restrained, probably taking constrictor damage each round, and is now a sitting duck when the Wizard drops the darkness to blast everyone with a Fireball.

So, not any more effective than any other spell. But still effective.

Yunru · Apr 22, 2017

I just control the summons based on the summoner's commands.

And reoccurring enemies start bringing scrolls of fireball.

Ben Schwarz · Mar 8, 2018

i havn't played yet and i have just been reading my players handbook that i bought and i thought Druid of the moon was cool then saw everyone calling it overpowered and like to ban the whole class from their games, so i thought maybe ranger beastmaster and i saw conjure animals in the spells they could learn and thought it was cool.

Why does everything i like have to be overpowered? i just like animals.

Hussar · Mar 8, 2018

Naw, there's nothing wrong with moon druids. They're fine.

Riley37 · Mar 8, 2018

Each player *other than the caster* runs one or two of the conjured animals, determining their actions and rolling as needed, immediately after their character's turn.

This way, the spell accomplishes the *character's* goal, but does not give the caster's *player* all the spotlight and table time.

D&D 5E Am I missing something about Conjure Animal

Werebat

Explorer

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!

MechaTarrasque

Hero

Hussar

Legend

schnee

First Post

Yunru

Banned

Ben Schwarz

First Post

Hussar

Legend

Riley37

First Post

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