Mystic soulknife questions

zaratan · Apr 25, 2017

neogod22 said:
Why would you be a frontliner? This is clearly not a class to be taking hits, and this is clearly not intended to be a healer either, you don't need to use your bonus action to heal, a healer in the group can do that job, or you can still use your short rest to spend hit dice. At this point in the game, the soul knife is on part to do more damage than the rogue, and if you spend your time mopping up trash mobs instead of trying to be a "frontliner," you can recover the psi points you spent. The soul knife is actually built to not have to use a lot of psi points, and the ability to recover them gives them sustainably.

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If you use melee attacks, you will stay in melee, want it or not, will be a frontline. Mystic doesn't have cunning action or ki, or monk speed, to hit and run, you will need to burn a lot of pp (and your bonus action), or get at least mobile. You know what is better if you don't want to stay in melee as mystic? Don't be a soul knife.
Comsulptive power let you trade hp for pp, this means that more hp=more pp. A lvl 10 mystic have 64 pp, when you use your discipline you can recover hp, if you recover half of the time, this means 32hp, that you can convert to 32pp... try to kill 16 enemies in a day to compensate that. You can't depend of others members to get full healed, your party have 3-6 guys, you're not the only one to be healed and any other class need to burn expensive resources to heal. Mystic can do it for just one bonus action when spend pp. But not soul knife, because they nees to use a bonus action to do a mediocre damage... better do what I say, dump this off hand attack and use booming blade.

Your last phrase make no sence. To have a decent damage they need to burn 10 pp in one encounter, how the hell they are "actually built to not have to use a lot of psi points"? They need to burn all they resource to do 3d8+15 at lvl 8, only in second or third round? A rogue can do more damage in an encounter, at least a rogue that I make, all day, no resources spend, and with better survivability. And guess what, rogue damage isn't great too, is just an average damage class.

And if you think 2 less disciplines doesn't matter, you didn't even tried to do one mystic.

neogod22 · Apr 26, 2017

zaratan said:
If you use melee attacks, you will stay in melee, want it or not, will be a frontline. Mystic doesn't have cunning action or ki, or monk speed, to hit and run, you will need to burn a lot of pp (and your bonus action), or get at least mobile. You know what is better if you don't want to stay in melee as mystic? Don't be a soul knife.
Comsulptive power let you trade hp for pp, this means that more hp=more pp. A lvl 10 mystic have 64 pp, when you use your discipline you can recover hp, if you recover half of the time, this means 32hp, that you can convert to 32pp... try to kill 16 enemies in a day to compensate that. You can't depend of others members to get full healed, your party have 3-6 guys, you're not the only one to be healed and any other class need to burn expensive resources to heal. Mystic can do it for just one bonus action when spend pp. But not soul knife, because they nees to use a bonus action to do a mediocre damage... better do what I say, dump this off hand attack and use booming blade.

Your last phrase make no sence. To have a decent damage they need to burn 10 pp in one encounter, how the hell they are "actually built to not have to use a lot of psi points"? They need to burn all they resource to do 3d8+15 at lvl 8, only in second or third round? A rogue can do more damage in an encounter, at least a rogue that I make, all day, no resources spend, and with better survivability. And guess what, rogue damage isn't great too, is just an average damage class.

And if you think 2 less disciplines doesn't matter, you didn't even tried to do one mystic.

Let me ask you something, how does a rogue heal? How does a monk, bladesinger or warlock heal? By the party healer right? Who says I have to spend my bonus actions to heal when I spend my psi points? Your problem is you're an in the box thinker. All you keep saying is "this class sucks because I don't how to use him." Let me tell you something, 1. a soul blade does not have to use their bonus action to attack every turn. 2. a soul blade does not have to melee every turn, or at all for that matter. 3. you probably won't get damaged every single round. 4. you most likely won't use psi points every round, and if you do, you probably won't end the day with them. 5. there's a discipline called psionic restoration, and if I want to heal myself, nothing stops me from taking that, and hey after I heal myself using it, I could even take a bonus action for more healing, what are the odds of that? How about thinking outside the box every once in a while and maybe you can figure out how good the classes you might of thought was weak could be.

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zaratan · Apr 26, 2017

neogod22 said:
Let me ask you something, how does a rogue heal? How does a monk, bladesinger or warlock heal? By the party healer right? Who says I have to spend my bonus actions to heal when I spend my psi points? Your problem is you're an in the box thinker. All you keep saying is "this class sucks because I don't how to use him." Let me tell you something, 1. a soul blade does not have to use their bonus action to attack every turn. 2. a soul blade does not have to melee every turn, or at all for that matter. 3. you probably won't get damaged every single round. 4. you most likely won't use psi points every round, and if you do, you probably won't end the day with them. 5. there's a discipline called psionic restoration, and if I want to heal myself, nothing stops me from taking that, and hey after I heal myself using it, I could even take a bonus action for more healing, what are the odds of that? How about thinking outside the box every once in a while and maybe you can figure out how good the classes you might of thought was weak could be.

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1- I didn't said it suck, I said is bad designed to be dual weapon when you have so many options to bonus action. And other mystic look better options.
2- you tried to compare soul knife with rogue, and to do the same, he lost great part of his versatility.
3- lvl 10 mystic can burn hp for psi point, this means that if he can recover half of psi point in hp, at the end of day, he can ger 50% more psi points. This isn't a small benefit, other classes don't get this for being fully healed, so don't compare.
4- any mystic with melee cantrips can do the same of soul knife in melee, but eith bonus action free, and 2 more disciplines.
5- great point of mustic is versatility, not damage, like wizard. Soul knife is the less versatile and his damage doesn't get much benefit unless he get even more desadvantage, this is bad design.
6- any mystic can get psionic restoration, but soul knife have 2 less disciplines to pick
7- they don't need to be in melee all the time, but his great point should be stay in melee. And any other mustic can stay at range better than soul knife.

Did you even tried to make some soul knife characters? Can you make a lvl 5, lvl 8 and lvl 11 build and see if others could be superior?

He isn't the worst achetype of all time, but the "strong points" of him, aren't that strong for what he abdicate.
At least immortal is probably even worse with immortal durability and psionic resilience synergic abyss.

neogod22 · Apr 26, 2017

Here's the thing. If you found something that's actually broken with the Archetype great, address it so it could be fixed. But whining about how it doesn't fit your limited play style, I could care less about what you think, because my experience and your experience will never be the same. I could care less about losing 2 disciplines, I've played warlocks. I know a thing or 2 about managing characters with limited abilities. Frankly if you're playing a ranged Mystic, and playing him right, you should almost never have to heal yourself anyway, so why are you so hung up on that 1 ability?

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zaratan · May 4, 2017

neogod22 said:
Here's the thing. If you found something that's actually broken with the Archetype great, address it so it could be fixed. But whining about how it doesn't fit your limited play style, I could care less about what you think, because my experience and your experience will never be the same. I could care less about losing 2 disciplines, I've played warlocks. I know a thing or 2 about managing characters with limited abilities. Frankly if you're playing a ranged Mystic, and playing him right, you should almost never have to heal yourself anyway, so why are you so hung up on that 1 ability?

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I think you didn't understand that this thread started with OP thinkg that soul knife is OP, and my point is, if there is some OP archetype in mystic, definitely isn't soul knife.
Some of your arguments doesn't make any sense, why the hell you would make a ranged soul knife if all they archetype benefits is with a melee weapon that he can't even throw it? If you want to play an optimized ranged mystic, choose any other order.
Saying that I have "limited playing style" doesn't help you to prove how strong and optimized a soul knife can be or how right it is the dual weapon design for him. This last part I think is impossible to prove.

neogod22 · May 4, 2017

zaratan said:
I think you didn't understand that this thread started with OP thinkg that soul knife is OP, and my point is, if there is some OP archetype in mystic, definitely isn't soul knife.
Some of your arguments doesn't make any sense, why the hell you would make a ranged soul knife if all they archetype benefits is with a melee weapon that he can't even throw it? If you want to play an optimized ranged mystic, choose any other order.
Saying that I have "limited playing style" doesn't help you to prove how strong and optimized a soul knife can be or how right it is the dual weapon design for him. This last part I think is impossible to prove.

No, you're the one who doesn't understand. Most of the psychic powers are ranged, and melee combat is not optimal for every situation, so why pigeon hole a character if he has the tools to be both ranged and melee? What doesn't make sense is you saying they anyone playing a soul knife should ignore the majority of the powers just to make melee attacks and then calling the character weak. I bet you think the same way about the Bladesinger, that he should only use melee combat even the the majority of wizard spells are ranged.

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zaratan · May 4, 2017

neogod22 said:
No, you're the one who doesn't understand. Most of the psychic powers are ranged, and melee combat is not optimal for every situation, so why pigeon hole a character if he has the tools to be both ranged and melee?

Because is obviously that the character can be more optimized in you focus in one of than. Just read any optimization guide in this forum.

neogod22 said:
What doesn't make sense is you saying they anyone playing a soul knife should ignore the majority of the powers just to make melee attacks and then calling the character weak. I bet you think the same way about the Bladesinger, that he should only use melee combat even the the majority of wizard spells are ranged.

I never used "ignore power", I said they have less disciplines (flexibility) and all the archetype benefit focus in melee, so they should be good at this. At least good enought to use most of the time while he isn't tossing fireballs or control spells like bladesinger.
I would never compare bladesinger with soul knife, bladesinger design make sense. Bladesinger can do more at will damage than soul knife, with better AC, save and mobility and get the same amought of spells of the rest of schools, so he really can use all his spells for other things that aren't weapon attacks. Bladesinger doesn't have 18473474 effects compeating for his bonus action. Bladesinger can get and use a magic weapon in his life with his class features. Bladesinger can hold anything in one hand while attack with the other. Please, don't try to compare both.

Let's make something, you try to make a lvl 5 and lvl 9 soul knife with point buy, I do the same with another order, we compare which one has less flaws and more benefits, ok?

neogod22 · May 4, 2017

zaratan said:
Because is obviously that the character can be more optimized in you focus in one of than. Just read any optimization guide in this forum.

I never used "ignore power", I said they have less disciplines (flexibility) and all the archetype benefit focus in melee, so they should be good at this. At least good enought to use most of the time while he isn't tossing fireballs or control spells like bladesinger.
I would never compare bladesinger with soul knife, bladesinger design make sense. Bladesinger can do more at will damage than soul knife, with better AC, save and mobility and get the same amought of spells of the rest of schools, so he really can use all his spells for other things that aren't weapon attacks. Bladesinger doesn't have 18473474 effects compeating for his bonus action. Bladesinger can get and use a magic weapon in his life with his class features. Bladesinger can hold anything in one hand while attack with the other. Please, don't try to compare both.

Let's make something, you try to make a lvl 5 and lvl 9 soul knife with point buy, I do the same with another order, we compare which one has less flaws and more benefits, ok?

Hey guy stay on the point. Yes a soul knife's level abilities are melee focused, because they need to be. Should be good at it? Dude combining 2 abilites gives them the highest to hit rating in the game at any level, you can almost not miss with them which in most situations is better than big damage. They can still do big damage, and they have the ability to recover psi points, the only mystics thst can do it. Every Mystic suffers the "too many abilities to compete for a bonus action," that's just how the class is built, and a smart player will know how to manage their abilities not complain about them.

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zaratan · May 4, 2017

neogod22 said:
Hey guy stay on the point. Yes a soul knife's level abilities are melee focused, because they need to be. Should be good at it? Dude combining 2 abilites gives them the highest to hit rating in the game at any level, you can almost not miss with them which in most situations is better than big damage. They can still do big damage, and they have the ability to recover psi points, the only mystics thst can do it. Every Mystic suffers the "too many abilities to compete for a bonus action," that's just how the class is built, and a smart player will know how to manage their abilities not complain about them.

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You're theozing concepts, apply them in one build and we'll see if really work that way. Make a real soul knife and we'll compare:

In which level they get this? How the damage output they can deal agaist a AC 16 and AC 20? At which cost? In the end of the day with 6 combat encounter 4.5 rounds each and 2 short rests how they can sustain it? What he will do with psi point left, if left some? Avg enemies killed with soul knife at the day? Which stats? Defenses, ally buffs, non combat stuff?

PS: If you would be right about hit is more important than damage, sharpshooter and great weapon master wouldn't be what they are.

This way help you: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...6gzfZb6N6XRj99CEto2MAXrWEk/edit#gid=309497876

You're right about high chance to hit being important, but most if you can toss a great damage. Use lethal strike for example is great in that situation (but you can't use it and your off hand attack at same turn). At least at lvl 14 you have a "no miss" option that you can use with lethal strike, but you can't use it with your off hand attack since you didn't use an "attack action".

Incredible how none of his features synergize with a off hand attack, you're sure this isn't a bad design?

neogod22 · May 4, 2017

zaratan said:
You're theozing concepts, apply them in one build and we'll see if really work that way. Make a real soul knife and we'll compare:

In which level they get this? How the damage output they can deal agaist a AC 16 and AC 20? At which cost? In the end of the day with 6 combat encounter 4.5 rounds each and 2 short rests how they can sustain it? What he will do with psi point left, if left some? Avg enemies killed with soul knife at the day? Which stats? Defenses, ally buffs, non combat stuff?

PS: If you would be right about hit is more important than damage, sharpshooter and great weapon master wouldn't be what they are.

This way help you: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...6gzfZb6N6XRj99CEto2MAXrWEk/edit#gid=309497876

You're right about high chance to hit being important, but most if you can toss a great damage. Use lethal strike for example is great in that situation (but you can't use it and your off hand attack at same turn). At least at lvl 14 you have a "no miss" option that you can use with lethal strike, but you can't use it with your off hand attack since you didn't use an "attack action".

Incredible how none of his features synergize with a off hand attack, you're sure this isn't a bad design?

I'm going to play one Monday in my play test group, which I've been experimenting with all the archtypes. I can't exactly base my experience off of what you call a combat day since everyone plays at different speeds and we get through what we get through. Since I mostly play in AL, I can't create a long term character. But from experience I can tell you that great weapon master is not for low level characters, and the majority of the people who take that feat at low levels are usually more of a liability in combat than an asset. You do 0 damage when you miss. At level 9, hitting AC 16 with a +14 to hit, you should be landing your strikes 90-95% of the time. You literally can only miss on a roll of 1. The reason you can't use lethal strike with your off hand is the same exact reason rogues can only use sneak attack 1 time per round, because it would be OVERPOWERED. Also it's irrelevant anyway since you can only use a certain number of psi points per round anyway.

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