Myrhdraak
Explorer
Ok, I went with the idea of making the animated corpses from the Nightcaller item being minions. Question is this to weak, or good enough?
The Sunless Citadell 4.5 Conversion
4.5 Edition Conversion Guide
/Myrhdraak
The Sunless Citadel 4.5 Edition Conversion
Ok, I went with the idea of making the animated corpses from the Nightcaller item being minions. Question is this to weak, or good enough?
The Sunless Citadell 4.5 Conversion
4.5 Edition Conversion Guide
/Myrhdraak
Myrhdraak
Explorer
ENCOUNTER LENGTH
As I have created all the 4.5 encounters for the Sunless Citadel we can now start looking at average combat length for the various encounters in the adventure (according to the 4.5 analysis modelling), and we get this graph.
The Average Encounter length is 2.3 rounds.
26% of the encounters are under 1 round in length.
61% of the encounters are under 2 rounds in length
16% of the encounters are above 4 rounds in length
Total combat table time is 36 hours if we calculate an average 30 minutes per round with 4 players.
I wonder how the old Keep on the Shadowfell (also an introduction adventure, but to 4th Edition) would look like?
/Myrhdraak
As I have created all the 4.5 encounters for the Sunless Citadel we can now start looking at average combat length for the various encounters in the adventure (according to the 4.5 analysis modelling), and we get this graph.
The Average Encounter length is 2.3 rounds.
26% of the encounters are under 1 round in length.
61% of the encounters are under 2 rounds in length
16% of the encounters are above 4 rounds in length
Total combat table time is 36 hours if we calculate an average 30 minutes per round with 4 players.
I wonder how the old Keep on the Shadowfell (also an introduction adventure, but to 4th Edition) would look like?
/Myrhdraak
Myrhdraak
Explorer
ENCOUNTER LENGTH - KEEP OF THE SHADOWFELL
Well, I just couldn't go to bed with that unanswered question floating around on the forum. As I did a conversion of the full H1 to E3 series, it was just an hour work to look at the statistics of the encounters in Keep of the Shadowfell. As I had already modeled the behaviour of 4th Edition rules, it was easy to do the same exercise for this adventure, so here is the graph:
The Average Encounter length is 3.8 rounds, or 63% longer compared to the Sunless Citadell with 4.5 Edition rules.
0% of the encounters are under 1 round in length.
4% of the encounters are under 2 rounds in length
36% of the encounters are above 4 rounds in length
Total combat table time is 56 hours if we calculate an average 36 minutes per round with 5 players. This is 58% more combat table time than in the Sunless Citadell with the 4.5 Edition rules, even though we have reduced the number of encounters from 31 to 25.
Conclusion: We will get a very different gameplay with the Sunless Citadell using 4.5 Edition rules, compared to the classic 4th Edition adventure Keep of the Shadowfell. I can't wait to try it out in real play, just to experience the difference.
The Sunless Citadell 4.5 Conversion
4.5 Edition Conversion Guide
/Myrhdraak
Well, I just couldn't go to bed with that unanswered question floating around on the forum. As I did a conversion of the full H1 to E3 series, it was just an hour work to look at the statistics of the encounters in Keep of the Shadowfell. As I had already modeled the behaviour of 4th Edition rules, it was easy to do the same exercise for this adventure, so here is the graph:
The Average Encounter length is 3.8 rounds, or 63% longer compared to the Sunless Citadell with 4.5 Edition rules.
0% of the encounters are under 1 round in length.
4% of the encounters are under 2 rounds in length
36% of the encounters are above 4 rounds in length
Total combat table time is 56 hours if we calculate an average 36 minutes per round with 5 players. This is 58% more combat table time than in the Sunless Citadell with the 4.5 Edition rules, even though we have reduced the number of encounters from 31 to 25.
Conclusion: We will get a very different gameplay with the Sunless Citadell using 4.5 Edition rules, compared to the classic 4th Edition adventure Keep of the Shadowfell. I can't wait to try it out in real play, just to experience the difference.
The Sunless Citadell 4.5 Conversion
4.5 Edition Conversion Guide
/Myrhdraak
Last edited:
Myrhdraak
Explorer
DESIGN METHODOLOGY
I think the below graph shows the design difference between 4th Edition and 5th Edition (and my 4.5 Edition take on it). 4th Edition is clearly built to make almost every encounter tactically interesting, and in order to do that WotC had to build the game for longer encounters with a lot of tactical choice. 5th/4.5 Edition make the assumption that not every encounter need to be tactically interesting - some are, but far from all - creating more opportunities for shorter encounters with maybe more focus on exploration and roleplaying in the encounters. Playstyle is going to be different for sure. Better or worse, is of course a matter of taste, but I think, or at least hope my gaming group is going to enjoy it.
The Sunless Citadell 4.5 Conversion
4.5 Edition Conversion Guide
/Myrhdraak
I think the below graph shows the design difference between 4th Edition and 5th Edition (and my 4.5 Edition take on it). 4th Edition is clearly built to make almost every encounter tactically interesting, and in order to do that WotC had to build the game for longer encounters with a lot of tactical choice. 5th/4.5 Edition make the assumption that not every encounter need to be tactically interesting - some are, but far from all - creating more opportunities for shorter encounters with maybe more focus on exploration and roleplaying in the encounters. Playstyle is going to be different for sure. Better or worse, is of course a matter of taste, but I think, or at least hope my gaming group is going to enjoy it.
The Sunless Citadell 4.5 Conversion
4.5 Edition Conversion Guide
/Myrhdraak
Myrhdraak
Explorer
FINISHED
Finally finished, or enough finished to start playing. It took roughly 1 month to do the conversion, but it was great fun as well. I will probably have to do some tweaks along the way. In summary I could almost go with the adventure as written, with some small tweaks. Might also add some area features along the way, but that will have to come later. I just downloaded the high resolution maps for the Sunless Citadel at
http://prints.mikeschley.com/
Really great quality, will now have to get them over to Map Tools and start creating some 4.5 Edition starting characters for the adventure. Once we start playing I will report on the progress and the play feeling of the new 4.5 Edition rules and the adventure.
The Sunless Citadell 4.5 Conversion
4.5 Edition Conversion Guide
/Myrhdraak
Finally finished, or enough finished to start playing. It took roughly 1 month to do the conversion, but it was great fun as well. I will probably have to do some tweaks along the way. In summary I could almost go with the adventure as written, with some small tweaks. Might also add some area features along the way, but that will have to come later. I just downloaded the high resolution maps for the Sunless Citadel at
http://prints.mikeschley.com/
Really great quality, will now have to get them over to Map Tools and start creating some 4.5 Edition starting characters for the adventure. Once we start playing I will report on the progress and the play feeling of the new 4.5 Edition rules and the adventure.
The Sunless Citadell 4.5 Conversion
4.5 Edition Conversion Guide
/Myrhdraak
Last edited:
Myrhdraak
Explorer
I have updated the link to One Drive but ONLY IN THE FIRST POST OF THIS THREAD, the other posts have broken links.
Regards,
Myrhdraak
Also read my:
H1-E3: Demon Prince of Undeath Conversion
Pathfinder - Reign of Winter 4th Edition Conversion Path
Changing the Combat Parameters of 4th Edition
Regards,
Myrhdraak
Also read my:
H1-E3: Demon Prince of Undeath Conversion
Pathfinder - Reign of Winter 4th Edition Conversion Path
Changing the Combat Parameters of 4th Edition
Myrhdraak
Explorer
Well I have actually only played two times with by 10 year old son and his friends. It worked very well. I had to create customized character sheets that took away some of the complexity of 4th Edition Power phrasing. This made it easier for them to read the Powers, while I kept the Power complexity on my end. I think they need to be older to understand the full 4th edition phrasing of Powers. The game went very well otherwise. It kept the encounters shorter on average, while lifting the exploration part.
I have also used the encounter length distribution (post 34) as basis when I created a new dungeon for the game I have with my friends. It was really interesting to start the dungeon design from that end. Now I had to decide where to put the challening and easier encounters already from start. Found it a much better way of approaching the design. I will maybe write an update with some guidelines in the 4.5 Edition Rules Changes document, to provider more DM help when designing dungeons and encounters.
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