D&D 5E Need last-minute advice on tracking time in non-combat when characters are running against the clock...

Shiroiken

Legend
Seems everyone like the per square/hex. I can see doing for hex exploration, but in a dungeon, for me, I would rather just assign a difficultly level for searching a room based on size, how much stuff is there to be searched, and other elements. For me, that is much quicker and requires less prep or disruption than counting squares.
It's the mentality of size=time and stuff to be searched=difficulty. Technically a small, heavily filled room would take longer to search than a larger room with little in it. Even with my method, I don't require time to search an empty room, since a passive search would instantly show there isn't anything (unless they search for secret doors or traps). As for counting squares/hexes for rooms, you can quickly do this when designing the dungeon (or estimate if you wish), and simply add it into the room notes.

Part of the advantage to having the time being based on the size is it gives consistency to the players. Some adventures are time based, and having an idea on how long it will take to search a room helps determine actions. If they roll badly, it can eat up time they don't really want, because their characters would have given up before the time required. If you still like time based DCs, simply let the players know the average time (middle DC), and have them decide how long they are willing to search before the roll. That way they can still make the attempt, but set a minimum DC they can achieve.
 

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Quickleaf

Legend
Everyone seems to dislike tie DC to time required. I don't understand why. Breaking into a bank vault does not just require more skill than lock bumping a barn door, it requires more time.

A large room packed with lots of debris and containers take more time to search than a small empty room.

I can intuitively and, most importantly, quickly assign a room with a DC for search. I can do that much more quickly than counting the squares.

Here's my narrative objection in a nutshell: In a scenario where time is limited & minimizing use of time is important to survival, things which take more time are dis-incentivized.

Actions with high DC tend to be more dramatic - as a DM I want to see the players encouraged to try those out because of the potential reward, risking failures that evolve the story.

However, by linking DC to time – in this scenario – you dis-incentivize players to try actions with high DCs because they will be sensitive towards conversing their time resource. And that means less risks taken, and less fun at the table.

.....

A secondary objection is that you seem to think that in this case verisimilitude is most important & further that it's verisimilitudinous to link "time required" to "difficulty of task." But that's just flat-out not a one-to-one correlation.

For example, let's say you need to search a 10' x 10' storeroom and then a 20' x 100' grand hall. If the storeroom is cramped and overstocked with barrels, bags, hanging slabs of salted meat and drying herbs, numerous jars on rickety shelves, and so forth, searching that smaller space could take even longer than searching a spartan grand hall with little to no furnishings. Similarly, if you search for something specific like specific spice jar in that messy storeroom, that could take longer or the same amount of time as looking for secret doors in the grand hall.

Sure, there are situations where size of the space would translate to logically taking longer to search, but it's not by any means a given that can be generalized.
 

Jer

Legend
Supporter
Everyone seems to dislike tie DC to time required. I don't understand why. Breaking into a bank vault does not just require more skill than lock bumping a barn door, it requires more time.

A large room packed with lots of debris and containers take more time to search than a small empty room.

I can intuitively and, most importantly, quickly assign a room with a DC for search. I can do that much more quickly than counting the squares.

Here's why I don't like it - the DC is already giving a chance of failure. If they fail to pop the lock then they should probably waste all of that time and not succeed. But the time of a success should be somewhat unpredictable - maybe they get lucky and pop the lock after a few seconds, or maybe it's more skill than luck and they succeed just by putting a lot of effort into it. If I were in that situation and wanted some narrative randomness, I'd probably make the time it takes related to the margin of success rather than to the difficulty. If you have like you say a 30 seconds per DC point rule then I'd knock 30 seconds off for each point in their margin of success. For example, if it's a DC 15 lock and they beat it with a 25, then they would knock 5 minutes off the attempt and have it unlocked in 2.5 minutes.

One big narrative benefit that this gives is that the players can't predict how long it will take them to do something. They can know the worst case (though you could randomize that a bit as well by using the margin of failure to add time to the base difficulty, making a roll of 1 a truly timewasting boondoggle), but they now have the option of trying to press their luck and hoping that it will take them less time. This might mitigate the potential problem that Quickleaf was thinking of where penalties for high DC actions make the players averse to taking those actions (though if that's not a problem for your group then it's not a problem).
 

aco175

Legend
The other side of trying to figure everything out is to have the time move at the speed of plot and the speed of fun.

If the players think they are wasting time, but you want/need them to encounter something- they do. If they are wasting time and you need them to move along for fun reasons- you tell them to make a survival check.

Time becomes arbitrary. You just need to make sure you are not trying to screw the PCs- at least on purpose.
 

mvincent

Explorer
Tracking these minor times would requirement more effort than it's worth. I'd use real-world time and only bother with the following:
- Short rests (which add an hour)
- Combats (which stop the clock: hour-long battles rarely last more than 10 rounds)

Real world time has the following advantages:
- You can set a stop-watch
- The players (rather than just the PC's) feel a sense of urgency in their interactions
- It's simple
- Although some things (like movement or searching) might be handled too quickly, other things (descriptions, side conversations) tend to make up the difference. So it tends to 'come out in the wash'.
 
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MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
It's the mentality of size=time and stuff to be searched=difficulty. Technically a small, heavily filled room would take longer to search than a larger room with little in it.

I guess I was unclear. I did make my posts far too late in the night. :)

I'm not saying size=time. Actually that's what square counting does. Instead, I make a judgement call based on all the environmental factors what the DC should be. It is no different than nearly in assignment of DC in 5e. 5e leaves much of this to DM discretion. There are not detailed mechanics to determine what the DC should be for scaling a cliff. The DM has a general guideline and assignes a rating based on the steepness, whether there are plenty of spots to grab hold off, is it wet and slick, are there lots of hornet nests or bee hives, how windy it is, and other factors.

In terms of preparation, I like DC because I don't have to determine the search DC for every room. I only need to come up with the DC as needed, and can easily do so on the fly during play. I find it harder to do so if I have to count / estimate squares.

Even with my method, I don't require time to search an empty room, since a passive search would instantly show there isn't anything (unless they search for secret doors or traps).

Fair enough. I do the same.

As for counting squares/hexes for rooms, you can quickly do this when designing the dungeon (or estimate if you wish), and simply add it into the room notes.

But with DC assignments, I can do on the fly, during play, and only when I need it. I already spend enough time on game prep. I prefer to spend it on story, NPCs and fun stuff. On the other hand, I realize i'm make a bigger deal out of this than it warrants. We do often include room dimensions in the descriptions and often have to count squares to answer player questions about a space. But anything to make my life easier as a DM is appreciated, and the DC approach seems to make my life easier than counting squares. Your mileage obviously varies. That's fine. I think both work under the RAW.

Part of the advantage to having the time being based on the size is it gives consistency to the players. Some adventures are time based, and having an idea on how long it will take to search a room helps determine actions. If they roll badly, it can eat up time they don't really want, because their characters would have given up before the time required. If you still like time based DCs, simply let the players know the average time (middle DC), and have them decide how long they are willing to search before the roll. That way they can still make the attempt, but set a minimum DC they can achieve.

That's true. Especially if the players can see the map. If they have a map and are planing a prison break or something, I might use the square-counting mechanics for that session so that they can calculate time needed, etc. On the other hand, I could just give them DC numbers for each room based on what they know about it. I agree that giving the players an average time is a good idea.
 

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
Here's my narrative objection in a nutshell: In a scenario where time is limited & minimizing use of time is important to survival, things which take more time are dis-incentivized.

Actions with high DC tend to be more dramatic - as a DM I want to see the players encouraged to try those out because of the potential reward, risking failures that evolve the story.

However, by linking DC to time – in this scenario – you dis-incentivize players to try actions with high DCs because they will be sensitive towards conversing their time resource. And that means less risks taken, and less fun at the table.

That's a very good point. But I don't think that is always a bad thing. Sometime you want to force hard decisions. Do I try to spend the time to get through this highly-protected door while I'm being slowly poisoned?

One problem with the DC tied to time is with traps. You can have a highly complex and dangerous roadside bomb. Its DC has nothing to do with time, it has to do with the fact hat you make one wrong move and BOOM.

A secondary objection is that you seem to think that in this case verisimilitude is most important & further that it's verisimilitudinous to link "time required" to "difficulty of task." But that's just flat-out not a one-to-one correlation.

For example, let's say you need to search a 10' x 10' storeroom and then a 20' x 100' grand hall. If the storeroom is cramped and overstocked with barrels, bags, hanging slabs of salted meat and drying herbs, numerous jars on rickety shelves, and so forth, searching that smaller space could take even longer than searching a spartan grand hall with little to no furnishings. Similarly, if you search for something specific like specific spice jar in that messy storeroom, that could take longer or the same amount of time as looking for secret doors in the grand hall.

Sure, there are situations where size of the space would translate to logically taking longer to search, but it's not by any means a given that can be generalized.

I addressed this in my response immediately above. This is not what I intended. I look at all environmental factors and assign a DC. It is a DM judgement call in the same way that assigning a DC to scaling a cliff or swimming across rapids, etc.
 

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
Here's why I don't like it - the DC is already giving a chance of failure. If they fail to pop the lock then they should probably waste all of that time and not succeed. But the time of a success should be somewhat unpredictable - maybe they get lucky and pop the lock after a few seconds, or maybe it's more skill than luck and they succeed just by putting a lot of effort into it. If I were in that situation and wanted some narrative randomness, I'd probably make the time it takes related to the margin of success rather than to the difficulty. If you have like you say a 30 seconds per DC point rule then I'd knock 30 seconds off for each point in their margin of success. For example, if it's a DC 15 lock and they beat it with a 25, then they would knock 5 minutes off the attempt and have it unlocked in 2.5 minutes.

One big narrative benefit that this gives is that the players can't predict how long it will take them to do something. They can know the worst case (though you could randomize that a bit as well by using the margin of failure to add time to the base difficulty, making a roll of 1 a truly timewasting boondoggle), but they now have the option of trying to press their luck and hoping that it will take them less time. This might mitigate the potential problem that Quickleaf was thinking of where penalties for high DC actions make the players averse to taking those actions (though if that's not a problem for your group then it's not a problem).

Another good point. Okay, you guys are convincing me to rethink this. Basically I'm back at DM fiat. It take the amount of time I decide it takes. Maybe I'm trying to create a mechanic where one isn't needed, especially given 5e emphasis on DM judgement.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
That's a very good point. But I don't think that is always a bad thing. Sometime you want to force hard decisions. Do I try to spend the time to get through this highly-protected door while I'm being slowly poisoned?

One problem with the DC tied to time is with traps. You can have a highly complex and dangerous roadside bomb. Its DC has nothing to do with time, it has to do with the fact hat you make one wrong move and BOOM.



I addressed this in my response immediately above. This is not what I intended. I look at all environmental factors and assign a DC. It is a DM judgement call in the same way that assigning a DC to scaling a cliff or swimming across rapids, etc.

Yeah, it's all a DM judgment call. Just be transparent in advance with your players, be consistent, and you'll be good. :)
 

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
The other side of trying to figure everything out is to have the time move at the speed of plot and the speed of fun.

If the players think they are wasting time, but you want/need them to encounter something- they do. If they are wasting time and you need them to move along for fun reasons- you tell them to make a survival check.

Time becomes arbitrary. You just need to make sure you are not trying to screw the PCs- at least on purpose.

This. I think maybe I am making things more complicated than I need.

What I found when I ran my adventure this past weekend is that even though I had a mechanic created, I was still guesstimating and fudging to keep things moving. Outside of combat my players don't want to get too fiddly with metrics anyway. Because even with rules for time to search rooms, etc., tracking exploration time to the minute is just not very fun and would slow down the game. I ended up just ticking off a 10-minute box when it felt right based on what the players were doing. About the only time tracking that was 100% consistent. A short rest was 60 minutes. Beyond that I just guestimated what I thought made sense for the amount of time that had passed.
 

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