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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by MoonSong View Post
    Can you tell any example of shaping raw energy that isn't actually straight up destruction? Because from my perspective it is a petty double standard that wizards are the only ones that can actually create and produce long term effects on the world.
    Not in game play, but in current literature, you can go to the Dragon Reborn novels by Robert Jordan where it seemed everyone who was able to use magic was a sorcerer. Some excelled in healing, illusion, damage, etc. They can use both instantaneous and concentration spells

    They used raw energy to heal, teleport, create magic items, and alter their physical forms. The ability to use some "spells" were based on gender in the early books, but then it became apparent that either gender could "cast" spells of any type, just some were better than others. All of them were able to touch the "source" and use the power.
    Last edited by ScuroNotte; Tuesday, 1st August, 2017 at 05:15 AM.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonSong View Post
    Can you tell any example of shaping raw energy that isn't actually straight up destruction? Because from my perspective it is a petty double standard that wizards are the only ones that can actually create and produce long term effects on the world.
    That's an area that I'm struggling to work into coherent rules. Right now I'm doing a copout where a sorcerer can learn some wizard spells as they gain levels (that is, they are learning how to shape the magic in such a way that it closely imitates what wizards do).

    But I think that being able to shape the magic to protect oneself (either against mundane or magical attacks), enchantment/charm effects, illusions and such should be possible. If you can create a force effect against another creature, you certainly should be able to create one to protect yourself.

    So far, all sorceries in my campaign are instantaneous, and there are no concentration sorceries. So what I'm working on right now are more sorcerers that can be cast as reactions. Shield is an obvious example spell, as is counterspell (which I might very well limit to sorcerers alone), but I think shaping protective magic to boost saving throws is where I'll probably land for those.

    The basic concept is simple - a sorcerer can use their reaction to channel some of their innate magical ability to attempt to deflect some sort of threat. I like that idea because it highlights the fact that they aren't reliant on the complex controls that spells provide (but also mean that casting spells takes longer).

    I have a lot of potential wild magic effects (interrupting a spell, a wizard attempting to cast a spell they haven't mastered yet, or without the proper components, etc.). Sorcerers are more likely to suffer from such effects, but can use a spell focus to reduce those chances. I'm still on the fence about continuing to allow wizards, clerics, and other classes to use spell foci. I like the idea that they are used only by sorcerers. Divine spell casters will have their holy symbols, of course. Still considering the ramifications, although by requiring wizards to have the appropriate material components (like we always have in my campaigns) highlights another advantage sorcerers have over wizards.

    For other spell effects, teleportation is another obvious one.

    Conjuration is also a good fit.

    I am OK with the idea that a sorcerer could conceivably create illusions or charm somebody. On the other hand, determining what they can and cannot do is a bit more challenging, and neither of these have many options that are instantaneous. Although it's not really a "requirement" that they all be instantaneous, for now I'm seeing what I can do if I stick with that approach. I'm working my way through the spells to see what that would make possible, and see if there are any patterns.

    It's simple to define level-based effects for damage and such for energy. It's much harder to define something like conjuration effects in a neat table by level.

    However, I wouldn't consider it a "petty double standard" depending on the way magic works in the world. I modify classes based on my world design, and the design of things like how magic works. My design goal isn't to "make a spellcasting class that can compete with the wizard." It's more a question of "in a world where spells are used to shape magic, what would a self-taught spellcaster without those safeguards be able to do?"

    For example, even the most "primitive" cultures can build a fire. But it takes a lot more knowledge and skill to build a gasoline engine to harness that fire in a particular application. And there are steps along the way. A steam engine is less complex than a diesel engine, for example. And a carbureted engine simpler than a fuel-injected one. So a shaman might be able to create fire, a sorcerer accomplish the capabilities of a steam engine, and a wizard the equivalent of a gas turbine or a rocket.

    I see magic is a challenging source of energy to manipulate, and it's rawest form is basically purely destructive. That is, you are attempting to channel something that is pure energy and control it.

    I view sorcery as probably the first type of arcane magic to be wielded by creatures other than dragons and other powerful races. Dragons, of course, are capable of shaping sorcery in ways that humans (or elves and others) haven't been able to match. Dwarves in my world are the AD&D style that have magic resistance and are poor at working with arcane magic. They can be wizards, but not sorcerers.

    Humans learned from the elves, who learned how to shape the raw energy into spells with complex formulas and the various components. In my world, it is definitively a safer way to wield magic, and capable of producing effects that cannot be created by humanoid sorcerers. Really the chain is dragons > elves > humans, although not always direct.

    I'm not particularly concerned as to whether that makes it fun for everybody to play outside of my campaigns. My approach is best suited for my campaign because it's so tightly connected to the way magic works. But I am happy to share the ideas, and I do try to put the class ideas together in a way that others can use them. But that's usually after I work out the details for my campaign.

    But because it's based on the world, I don't limit myself to the idea that a sorcerer (as an arcane spellcaster class) must be of equal flexibility and power as a wizard (another arcane spellcaster class). It is harder (via ability scores - and we roll in order) to be a sorcerer. You have to have an innate talent. Within a more specialized (narrow) field, you have far more flexibility than a wizard at any given point in time. But wizardry has tens of thousands of years of research and study, by humans, elves, and other intelligent races (liches, for example), and it's a very developed (if somewhat secretive) discipline. It simply allows more options (provided you learn the requisite spell) than that of a person who just has an innate talent to tap into and shape that same energy and chooses to do so directly, with little or no instruction, often learning by trial-and-error.

    Another thing I have in my campaign are organizational feats. For example, members of the Red Wizards of Thay may have access to magical learning and secrets (via feats) that nobody else does. There are several organizations of sorcerers who have studied their talents to learn how to better wield it and have several feats available for other sorcerers that they allow into their ranks and have reached a high enough level (within the organization, not character level). To a large degree these replace the concept of prestige classes among other things.
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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScuroNotte View Post
    Not in game play, but in current literature, you can go to the Dragon Reborn novels by Robert Jordan where it seemed everyone who was able to use magic was a sorcerer. Some excelled in healing, illusion, damage, etc.

    They used raw energy to heal, teleport, create magic items, and alter their physical forms. The ability to use some "spells" were based on gender in the early books, but then it became apparent that either gender could "cast" spells of any type, just some were better than others. All of them were able to touch the "source" and use the power.
    I have considered allowing sorcerers some healing magic. I think it fits the concept well enough. And then leave it to the sages and wizards to continue to debate why they remain unable to develop arcane spells that can heal. In the Realms this fits with the description of spellfire, which I think that to a large degree is simply a person gifted with a very strong tie to the weave, moreso than your average sorcerer.

  4. #124
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    nevermind
    Last edited by Mistwell; Tuesday, 1st August, 2017 at 05:25 AM.

  5. #125
    bump
    Last edited by ScuroNotte; Tuesday, 1st August, 2017 at 05:50 AM.

  6. #126
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    Edit - Scur and I just clarified something...no reason to derail the thread, it's resolved.
    Last edited by Mistwell; Tuesday, 1st August, 2017 at 07:37 PM.

  7. #127
    Didn't notice the retraction Mist. I edited my post twice, each time the system froze.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnZapp View Post
    A truly great sorcerer class would have extensive support for various elemental-themed builds.
    That'd improve the Dragon sub-class.

    Maybe each sub-class - or elemental flavor w/in the Draconic one - could get an automatic, possibly unique, metamagic - as well as some automatic extra spells known.
    Ideally replacing the metamagic monopoly.
    ...
    Then most of the current metamagic options - that have a quite cerebral feel - could be repackaged for general use (mainly Wizard and Psion).
    Usually this only happens to the fighter: try to improve on a class only to have its toys given away.

    The sorcerer languishes in 5e because spontaneous casting was given away. Solution? Also give away metamagic?

    No. Return the prepped casters to Vancian, if they want metamagic there can be a feat for one (like so many other class features that can be poached that way), and pay by prepping into a higher level slot, like in 3e.
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  9. #129
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    For those that are interested, here's the work-in-progress for my sorcerer. Obviously this is a huge change from the core, and it's designed with my campaign in mind. For the moment it still maintains the meta-magic focus using sorcery points (which are separate from spell points). The spell point system is tough to do well, so I'm still working on that. I might modify it into a short rest ability with fewer spell points, similar to the warlock. I think that fits the class concept very well, where a sorcerer has a more direct (and more ready) access to shaping the Weave, since they don't have to prepare spells.

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilbranteloth View Post
    I have considered allowing sorcerers some healing magic. I think it fits the concept well enough. And then leave it to the sages and wizards to continue to debate why they remain unable to develop arcane spells that can heal. In the Realms this fits with the description of spellfire, which I think that to a large degree is simply a person gifted with a very strong tie to the weave, moreso than your average sorcerer.
    I would love a Spellfire Sorceror Origin! They, should do that.

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