D&D 5E Best designed classes in 5e

Saelorn said:

Trash monsters aren't going to hurt anyone regardless, so the fact that the paladin doesn't excel against them is meaningless. Boss monsters might actually hurt someone, so any advantage you have against them is meaningful.

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This is 5e, a system with bounded accuracy, where a legit horde of "trash" monsters can be an actual threat even to high-level characters. And that's exactly the kind of fight where the Paladin is weaker, while a Wizard with AoE capability excels.

Saelorn said:

Those are two different problems, though. The fireball-output-rate isn't the problem which the bonus-action-spell-injunction addresses, because barring unusual circumstances, you're not going to be casting a fireball (or anything like it) as a bonus action. Bonus action spells aren't so big or powerful that you would need to explicitly prevent anyone from casting two in a round.

The problem which the bonus-action-spell-injunction directly addresses is the ability of some characters to burn through their long-rest-resources too much more quickly than other characters. That being the case, it's problematic if the paladin is burning through more than one slot on their turn, regardless of whether that goes into a smite or some other spell effect. Power imbalances aside, half of the problem would be fixed if you could activate Smite as a bonus action and it lasted until your next turn.

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If your theory was correct that they wanted all abilities gated behind a 1 per turn limit then many things in the game got overlooked...
1. Battlemaster dice
2. Monk KI points (when used for various abilities)
3. Paladin Smites

All of these types abilities cost a resource and allow you to do things on a per attack basis. I believe Paladin's Divine Smite should more closely resemble battlemaster dice and monk ki points than following the limits on spell casting. The only difference between the Paladin and Battlemaster/Monk is that the Paladin's resource is gated behind a daily refresh whereas the others are a short rest refresh.

I think we have a much better case for comparing Paladins to the Battlemaster or Monk than we do to the full caster classes that have a hard 1/turn limit to using their daily resources.

I wouldn't say that its "good" or "bad" in the first place, but a place designed to shine, and a place for others to shine in.

Irregardless, not everyone's playstyle matches up with the intended playstyle of every class, and sometimes there is a clash. Vanician magic relies heavily on the idea of resource management as part of the subgame. Its a game I strongly dislike, but its part of many classes nonetheless. If someone doesn't like that game, then its not a bad design, since its working as intended. Zie just don't like the intended design.

Hemlock said:

I'm speaking purely of offscreen concerns for which all outcomes are equally appropriate from an in-game perspective: you have no idea when the cult is planning to sacrifice the princess, so when you show up, "already dead" is just as plausible as "still alive."
...
Maybe I failed to make it clear, but this is why I mentioned random encounters. Rests can trigger random encounters, which eat up table time, which is bad because table time is the actual resource you're spending to keep the princess alive.

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OK, that's clear enough. It still doesn't seem a big time sink, though - combats in fast-combat-5e are fast, bookkeeping for a rest doesn't take hardly any table time.

Without the metagame-based time constaint in play, random encounters are just free XP, not a meaningful constraint on resting.

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Seems like they'd be a constraint if they consume some resources, and rests carry a cost beyond the few minutes it takes to do the bookkeeping. Otherwise, yeah, a chump-fight that costs no resources probably also costs very little table-time. Or, if table time is a constraint, maybe it can translate into a resource, like an AE spell to clear it that much faster.

Why bother? Just let it be Deadly. It's not like players care what label you slap on the fight.

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In the context of 'free xp,' I suppose, the 'Deadly' fight is more xp than the gimmicked medium fight.
:shrug:
But, yeah, 'why bother' certainly comes up in any close examination of encounter design. Why not just improv the fight, keep it exciting, wrap it up quick when it stops being fun, and give out whatever xp fits your campaign pacing?

FrogReaver said:

All of these types abilities cost a resource and allow you to do things on a per attack basis. I believe Paladin's Divine Smite should more closely resemble battlemaster dice and monk ki points than following the limits on spell casting. The only difference between the Paladin and Battlemaster/Monk is that the Paladin's resource is gated behind a daily refresh whereas the others are a short rest refresh.

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That's a huge difference, though. I mean, look at the other class which can effectively exhaust its special abilities in two rounds; I don't think that anyone here is arguing that it's bad for the Warlock to run out of spells in two rounds.

With the short-rest classes and (sub-classes), they can run through their resources, and the most it will set the party back is a short rest. In a worst-case scenario, a selfish player might strongly pressure the rest of the group into taking a short rest so that they can get their ki points or superiority dice or pact slots back, where a selfish player of a long-rest class would be pressuring them into taking a long rest. In that sense, the rule also forms a sort of insurance against new/reckless/selfish players to prevent them from wrecking the pace. That's not quite the point I was getting at before, but it's related. You can see it in a lot of other places, between Hit Dice and a slew of class features, that they really wanted to make sure everyone could keep going through at least two fights in a day, regardless of how far they're down after the first one.

FrogReaver said:

I'm assuming you mean trickery cleric? What is wrong with him?

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It's subpar compared to the rest.

Their armor being medium is non-functional without a feat tax.
They don't get weapon proficiency to support better combativeness, which leaves them neither stealthy or terribly combat capable off the bat.
You really have to go with a Dex build, but they get nothing but a dagger as a finesse weapon, and some crossbows.
You almost have to start fighter or rogue to pick up the weapons and skills you need to make this build capable. (Or go monk and take 8 levels of trickery).

If you want to be a Frankenstein cleric that does nothing terribly well... go straight Trickery domain, otherwise, pick something else.

Valdier said:

It's subpar compared to the rest.

Their armor being medium is non-functional without a feat tax.
They don't get weapon proficiency to support better combativeness, which leaves them neither stealthy or terribly combat capable off the bat.
You really have to go with a Dex build, but they get nothing but a dagger as a finesse weapon, and some crossbows.
You almost have to start fighter or rogue to pick up the weapons and skills you need to make this build capable. (Or go monk and take 8 levels of trickery).

If you want to be a Frankenstein cleric that does nothing terribly well... go straight Trickery domain, otherwise, pick something else.

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1. Yes you have to go dex. God forbid a cleric go dex?
2. If you go dex medium armor is fine.
3. At range: Use a crossbow. It stays equal or above sacred flame.
4. In melee use sacred flame (a dagger functions about the same early as sacred flame).
5. No idea why you would think starting fighter or rogue mattered. Clerics get most of their damage with spells. Bless, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians etc.

So let's see what the trickery cleric gets that's really awesome.
A. Blessing of the Trickster. One of my absolute favorite cleric domain tricks. For a solo scout mission you give the rogue advantage on stealth checks. For a party stealth mission you help that heavy armor wearing fighter so he doesn't immediately draw attention to the whole party any more. Amazing!

B. The spell list is packed with goodies that clerics don't normally get. Some of them are amazing and some are fun and situationally strong.
Pass without trace (great spell especially when coupled with blessing of the trickster)
Polymorph
Disguise self
Mirror Image
Dimension door

I will give you that the trickery domain's channel divinitys are pretty bad. The capstone for the trickery domain is also pretty meh. So yea, if you are looking at level 17+ the subclass is lacking. Anything before that though seems fine.

ehren37 said:

5th edition handles set piece battles particularly poorly as the math just doesnt support a memorable big boss because their defenses just suck (RIP 4E solos/elites).

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Making the boss Legendary helps a lot. Give the NPC some useful things to do with his actions and maybe give him a Lair Action or two as well.

FrogReaver said:

1. Yes you have to go dex. God forbid a cleric go dex?

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Exaggerated emphasis yours, not mine.

FrogReaver said:

2. If you go dex medium armor is fine.

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No, it really isn't... you are better off just going light armor at that point and pure dex focused since it is your primary stat with that awesome dagger. Dex, Wisdom, Con is a little MAD but not terrible.

FrogReaver said:

3. At range: Use a crossbow. It stays equal or above sacred flame.

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At very low level, yes that is true.

FrogReaver said:

4. In melee use sacred flame (a dagger functions about the same early as sacred flame).
5. No idea why you would think starting fighter or rogue mattered. Clerics get most of their damage with spells. Bless, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians etc.

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It seems as though your focus is on, how "less poor" they are than other 1st level characters. The game does go past 1st level though.

FrogReaver said:

So let's see what the trickery cleric gets that's really awesome.
A. Blessing of the Trickster. One of my absolute favorite cleric domain tricks. For a solo scout mission you give the rogue advantage on stealth checks. For a party stealth mission you help that heavy armor wearing fighter so he doesn't immediately draw attention to the whole party any more. Amazing!

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Not as good as Pass without a Trace. Not so Amazing! Their one spell is massively superior to this ability and doesn't require a specialized class ability. In fact, many classes get the spell.

FrogReaver said:

B. The spell list is packed with goodies that clerics don't normally get. Some of them are amazing and some are fun and situationally strong.
Pass without trace (great spell especially when coupled with blessing of the trickster)
Polymorph
Disguise self
Mirror Image
Dimension door

I will give you that the trickery domain's channel divinitys are pretty bad. The capstone for the trickery domain is also pretty meh. So yea, if you are looking at level 17+ the subclass is lacking. Anything before that though seems fine.

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Some of the spells are decent, admittedly... but they don't make up from the Subpar rest of the sub-class. It's a sub-class desperately in need of booming blade, sneak attack... something for the combat pillar. Yes you could play generic cleric style ignoring the trickery aspect, but it almost screams for multi-classing with its features.

Multiclassing rogue and fighter are so blatantly obvious it almost feels silly to point them out. Fighter for Second Wind, weapon proficiency, heavy armor (because Pass without a trace and guidance make it superior), getting a real bow, finesse weapons, Action Surge, the choice of Strength vs Dex, etc.

Rogue is for all those awesome dex skills and actual damage that would make this class exceptionally useful with its ability set.

I get that you like the Trickery domain... cool. It's still notably subpar compared to pretty much any of the other cleric domains.

guachi said:

Making the boss Legendary helps a lot. Give the NPC some useful things to do with his actions and maybe give him a Lair Action or two as well.

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They're still just a one round chump because they simply don't have the HP to withstand focus fire. Mine need 50+ per party level to last any decent length of time.