D&D 5E Resting and the frikkin' Elephant in the Room

clearstream

(He, Him)
Agreed, whether having 1 encounter or 6-8 encounters, both may be linear.
From my point of view it is certainly harder to justify 6-8 encounters per adventuring day over a long campaign without forcing the linear issue. Just thinking about it logically:
I HAVE to have 6-8 encounters per adventuring day no matter what choices the PCs make OR I can have have AS many or AS little encounters as the adventuring day requires according to the PCs actions. What inherently strikes you as more linear style play?
My approach is pragmatic. I feel like I can offer greatest diversity when I can use both. I don't have to have 6-8 encounters. I'd like to sometimes have 6-8 encounters with a mechanically meaningful connection between them. There is more than one way to achieve that, but a simple way is resource management i.e. where PCs don't replenish all their resources between encounters. As [MENTION=6691663]Tobold[/MENTION] observes, that situation also better diversifies class features. The simple example is the Warlock. If PCs always long-rest between encounters, a level 10 Warlock will really feel the pinch of only 5 slots. If PCs more often short-rest between encounters, those slots have more value.

I'm not saying its impossible to create 6-8 encounters via sandbox but over a course of a campaign your average DM will create linear sessions to fill his encounter quota.
I feel like the pressure you describe is fuelled by a mismatch between rest and campaign scale. Say I use the Gritty Realism option from the DMG. I can then indulge a great deal of wandering by the PCs. The standard 8-hour long-rest puts a pinch on that because my party will likely feel they can take a long-rest most calendar days and as you observe I might then enjoy less narrative freedom. It's important to stress here that we're not trying to get rid of the single deadly encounter that challenges a fully-tooled up party. We're trying to broaden that by ensuring we can have meaningful easy and medium encounters too. And of course, there should be exploration and roleplay. "Easy" narrative encounters need no mechanical import, to be valuable.

It might be flawed, but this is the way I see it:
AD&D balanced classes and races over levels 1-20
5e balances classes over 6-8 encounters.
I agree with you that class-versus-class balance in 5e is more even at every level, whereas in earlier versions of the game some classes were stronger earlier and some later (notably the martial-versus-arcanist balance). I don't think AD&D achieved it's intended balance as successfully as 5e does, and with the benefit of hindsight I'd likely argue now that cross-level balance was a problematic approach. Looking specifically at rests, I agree with you that 5e balances classes against 6-8 encounters between long-rests. They emphasise that ratio in the DMG and you can see it in the power-balancing of class features.

For me it is as simple as comparing the list of what I can offer with meaningful long-rests, and what I can offer without them. There are good things on both lists, but there are more good things on the second list than the first.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Bounuses are bounded, so the range of meaningful DCs is limited, once you get to setting a DC, that is. By the time a DC comes into it, the DMs already made one ruling, in calling for the check at all.

So, yeah, rulings not rules.

Gonna jump on this one, Tony. The rules lay out how and generally when you should ask for a check, and generally how you should set DCs, so it's not exactly a ruling to do what the rules lay out. I think you're confusing judgement with rules. All RPGs involved DM judgement (and player judgement), but rulings are decisions about rules, not the judgement calls the rules require you to make.

Deciding if the character can hide behind that crate is a judgement call within the rules. Deciding that no crate ever will allow hiding behind is a ruling. There's a meaningful difference -- the first is required to apply the rules, the second is the DM establishing a new rule or changing an existing one (even if temporary).
 

Hussar

Legend
Actually you answered your own question

"How often do you actually have to make a ruling on something not covered in the mechanics?"

10% of the time, if I take your word for it...

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

Actually that's not right. After all, there's nothing saying that those 10% items come up 10% of the time. It could easily be that you never see one of the corner cases. If you don't have anyone cast invisibility for example, then the hide rules are a lot less of an issue.

You keep wanting WotC to fill in that 10%. They aren't going to. It's that simple. Either do it yourself or do without.

It's precisely the same response Warlord fans get. Welcome to the party.
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
But, again, that's not any different than before. The DM always had the option of calling for a check or not.
Ultimately, the DM could always do whatever he wanted in any edition, but that hardly made all editions the same in terms of DM Empowerment, presentation, perception, community attitude, and impetus the system gives in needing, rather than merely allowing rulings, all contribute.

Take a diplomacy check in 3e, for a notorious instance, the DC are fixed in a table, and high as the ridiculous end was, characters could be optimized to hit them consistently.

And, in 4e, the DM is rather encouraged to only make checks when it mattered.
That's very different guidance, though, isn't it? Based on drama & story.

Look at the evolution of jumping.

In any edition, the player declares that he wants to jump across a 10 foot gap. In AD&D, the DM basically set any DC he felt like - there were no real guidelines at all.
To be fair, there wasn't any resolution system, either. The DM might call for almost anything - a bend-bars/lift-gates%, a roll under STR on a d20 or 3d6, an arbitrary n in 6 chance, etc...

Now, that's empowerment!

In 3e, the jump check DC was dictated by the mechanics, but, if the PC's skill was greater than the DC, then no check was required - it automatically succeeded.
Well, 1s didn't automatically fail..
Same in 4e.
Yeah, don't get me started...
;)
Now, in 5e, there's no check at all. The PC jumps his Str score (presuming a 10 foot running start). The DM has no real say in things at all. Player says, "I jump X feet" and he does.
Like movement, sure, the player knows his speed. Maybe has something to do with the line 5e draws between move and action?

I honestly think you're overplaying this hand. Rulings not rules refers to 5e's backing off the notion of "Rules for Everything". But, that doesn't mean that it's not still pretty solidly a rules heavy game with rules for most things.
AD&D was notorious, in its day for having lots of rules, and it was very DM-empowering, the very thing 5e reached for - successfully, IMHO - with rulings-not-rules. It doesn't have much to do with the quantity of rules - 5e is still rules-heavy by any reasonable metric, and that, too, is part of it as it was in the TSR era, it's the qualities & presentation/resolution of those rules directly involving the DM, from basic declare-an-action resolution on.

. I think you're confusing judgement with rules.
I do equate a DM judgement call with the 'rulings' side of rulings-not-rules, yes. Even - heck especially - if the rules call for it.

That's part of how 5e Empowers the DM, by inserting DM rulings into the mechanics, so players learn to expect them (initially derided as DM-may-I play).

....

And, if I may direct your attention back to the elephant, the duration, requirements, and completion of rests stands out in contrast to the resolution of other actions, in being fixed by the rules and offering alternate, equally fixed, modules rather than calling for a ruling.
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I do equate a DM judgement call with the 'rulings' side of rulings-not-rules, yes. Even - heck especially - if the rules call for it.

That's part of how 5e Empowers the DM, by inserting DM rulings into the mechanics, so players learn to expect them (initially derided as DM-may-I play).

if you're including judgments required to apply the rules in rulings, then you've essentially said all RPGs are based on rulings, not rules.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
if you're including judgments required to apply the rules in rulings, then you've essentially said all RPGs are based on rulings, not rules.
Clearly that's not the case, since 3e, for instance was very much the opposite - RAW-not-RAI.

Maybe 'rulings not rules' was tossed out because it sounded catchier than 'rules that require rulings' or 'rulings take priority over rules?' IDK.

To use the example of the 3.x diplomancer, again, the DCs were fixed, the DM still got to use some judgement in setting the initial attitude of the target, but he wasn't invited to judge success/failure up-front, as in 5e. The former is an example of RAW-uber-alles, the latter rulings-not-rules.

Both have a foundation in the rules, themselves (and examples from the rules that contradict them), but they manifest in the attitudes of those playing (and dissecting) the game.

5e could have just put a Rule 0 in the PH somewhere like 3.x did and claimed to be DM-Empowering on the strength of one sentence, but it went much further than that.
 
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Imaro

Legend
Clearly that's not the case. Rather, it's rules that require rulings in order to be applied. ;)

Seriously, though, it doesn't seem like a controversial subject. Maybe 'rulings not rules' was tossed out because it sounded catchier than 'rules that require rulings' or 'rulings take priority over rules?' IDK.

To use the example of the 3.x diplomancer, again, the DCs were fixed, the DM still got to use some judgement in setting the initial attitude of the target, but he wasn't invited to judge success/failure up-front, as in 5e. The former is an example of RAW-uber-alles, the latter rulings-not-rules.

Both have a foundation in the rules, themselves (and examples from the rules that contradict them), but they manifest in the attitudes of those playing (and dissecting) the game.

5e could have just put a Rule 0 in the PH somewhere like 3.x did and claimed to be DM-Empowering on the strength of one sentence, but it went much further than that.

You do realize 5e has DC's for Charisma checks to influence NPC's right? It's in the DMG for those who want that level of rule specificity. Again you seem to be moreso talking about presentation and organization that supports DM empowerment as opposed to an actual lack of rules and necessity for it.
 



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