Grappler build, looking for Tier 3 leveling advice

I'm currently playing an Bear Totem Barbarian 5 / Arcane Trickster 7. He was built to be primarily a grappler, but still be able to put out decent damage when needed, with a little bit of utility here and there. I've found that while I love the grappling pieces, and want to keep that capability, in most cases he contributes more as a tank/dpr.

I just got enough xp to hit 13th level, and I'm finding myself a bit torn on how to proceed from here. Hoping y'all can provide some input.

My original plan was to take the next three levels as fighter (Champion).
-Second wind and fighting style would be nice boosts, but really I'd be doing it for the following two features:
-Action surge would increase my capabilities as a grappler, plus be an option for damage boosting when I need it, and of course is just all-around useful.
-Champion's improved critical is pretty great when stacked with reckless attack and sneak attack.

I also used a flametongue rapier, and Champion synergizes with that as well (extra 2d6 on crits); however, I just upgraded to a vorpal scimitar, which doesn't have any damage dice to boost on a crit.

So what I'm now considering instead, is to just proceed with Rogue levels. Those same three levels, put into Rogue instead of Champion, would give me:
-2 ASIs (probably spend them on Mage Slayer and Sentinel; already have Lucky)
-1d6 extra sneak attack damage
-A bit of a bump on the AT spell front, including one more 2nd-level spell slot, a second out-of-school spell choice, and Magical Ambush (all of which I will rarely use).

Additionally, taking those three levels in Rogue instead of Champion means I'll be only one Rogue level away from Reliable Talent and yet another d6 on sneak attacks, at Rogue 11.

One other wrinkle in this is how quickly I get the benefits. If I go the fighter route, I'll spend a level with minimal benefits (F1), before getting to the real goodies at F2 and F3. With the rogue route, I immediately get a feat at R8, then the rest of the benefits are spread out.

So yeah, I'm struggling with which is better. If I had to simplify it, I think it's mainly coming down to: the flexibility of Action Surge + the increased damage of Champion's crit range; vs. the utility of two more Feats.

FYI, I play AL, so any input has to be aligned with it (for example, no Unearthed Arcana). Also, my stats are such that no other MC class options are available; it's barbarian, rogue, or fighter only. Oh and in case it helps you to know some more background: The character is a full Orc, has the ability to fly (winged boots), and has advantage on initiative (whip of warning).

Looking forward to your thoughts. Thanks in advance!

Arcane 8 (take Enlarge Reduce, do not rage for grapple). This gives you the size you need and advantage on checks. Fighter 2: action surge! Dont mess around with Champion, its a trap. Your damage output will always be better with battlemaster (and the prone, grabbed target cannot stand up).

John Blaise Lent said:

Arcane 8 (take Enlarge Reduce, do not rage for grapple). This gives you the size you need and advantage on checks. Fighter 2: action surge! Dont mess around with Champion, its a trap. Your damage output will always be better with battlemaster (and the prone, grabbed target cannot stand up).

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I already have Enlarge/Reduce (I swapped out my AT 3 out-of-school spell for it when I hit AT 7 and opened up 2nd-level spell slots). I still find myself preferring to rage due to the damage reduction (it is a massive benefit); and of course rage gives advantage as well. I only intend to use Enlarge when I need to grapple large opponents; but the few times that's come up so far, my damage capabilities have been needed more than my grappling capabilities. I'm sure it will be useful in the future though.

I know the accepted rule is that Champion is a trap, but I believe that is for straight fighters. Have you seen any math done on Champion when combined with constant advantage and potentially doubled sneak attack dice? I find it *very* hard to believe that in that situation, 4x/rest d8s and/or Precision/Reposte would actually contribute more. But if there's math on it showing otherwise I'd definitely reconsider.

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Edit: Just did the math myself. With flametongue, Champion is the clear winner. With vorpal (which is the better way to go regardless), Battlemaster just slightly edges ahead (33.5 average dpr vs. 32.1 average dpr), *if* there are 4 rounds of combat or less per short rest.

But the real takeaway, IMO, is that either way, that's not great DPR for level 15, so I should be focusing on being a better grappler/tank/utility player instead of trying to chase DPR. In which case, Champion is the clear loser, since it brings nothing at L3 but DPR.

So you've convinced me! Battlemaster is the way to go if I do take fighter to 3. Still not sure, though, if I should go Battlemaster 3 now, get three levels of rogue now, or do some combo of the two.

Yes, exactly what you wrote. BTW it is illegal to swap out the level 3 spell for Enlarge. "Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be an enchantment or illusion spell, unless you’re replacing the spell you gained at 8th, 14th, or 20th level." That's why I said AT8.

I understand that generally, the damage reduction is valuable. But if you can get a significant size advantage, you can drag MUCH further. You are shooting for 2 or more sizes larger (ie enlarge gets you the ability to drag SMALL creatures at full speed, combine with another caster giving you polymorph, and you can get medium or potentially even large creatures at full speed).

As you already noted, your DPR will be secondary at best (unless a druid or ranger hooks you up with a death zone), so I probably would not even bother with 3 fighter (action surge enlarge, attack 1, grab, attack 2, knock prone, move, cunning action dash). At that point, you have effectively locked down one enemy and removed him from his formation. You can then either pummel him at your leisure (sneak attack!) or you can repeat the same process over and over and over etc.

Depending on your environment, Athlete might be amazing for you - climb up 80', drop enemy (28 dpr, assuming you have to spend your action each round grabbing someone). Or climb 40', grab drop, repeat. Mobile is similarly helpful. And of course, stacking a ring of jumping with the jump spell.

I appreciate the input, but I've gotta disagree with most of your points.

johnlent said:

Yes, exactly what you wrote. BTW it is illegal to swap out the level 3 spell for Enlarge. "Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be an enchantment or illusion spell, unless you’re replacing the spell you gained at 8th, 14th, or 20th level." That's why I said AT8.

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According to Jeremy Crawford/Sage Advice, "An Arcane Trickster can retrain their 1st-level spell from any school. (An unintended omission.)" See http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/12/07...any-school-but-arcane-trickster-still-cannot/

I realize Sage Advice is not an official rules source for AL, but that retraining is clearly RAI, and I've yet to play with a DM that doesn't accept the ruling at that link.

johnlent said:

I understand that generally, the damage reduction is valuable. But if you can get a significant size advantage, you can drag MUCH further. You are shooting for 2 or more sizes larger (ie enlarge gets you the ability to drag SMALL creatures at full speed, combine with another caster giving you polymorph, and you can get medium or potentially even large creatures at full speed).

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Fair enough, but it's pretty situational where that all lines up to be both possible and useful. I have never yet run with a druid or ranger that creates a death zone --although that will be an amazing strategy when it finally happens. I do, though, have boots of flying. So if there's open sky above me, the ability to drag at full speed straight up gets me an extra 2d6 of damage with my normal movement, or up to an extra 8d6 of damage if I'm using my action, bonus action, and action surge to dash. To get that damage, I either need to drop them (releasing the grapple), or drop with them (taking the same amount of damage myself, which if I'm not raging I'm not resistant to). It's fun, but it's hardly a no-brainer that that's the best move.... and we'd need to be outdoors, the tradeoffs would have to be worth it, I'd need to be maintaining concentration, I'd need to give up an action (or an action surge) to cast Enlarge, and the grapple-ee would need to be Small. I can't remember the last time I fought a small creature. The last dozen or so fights I've had with this character were dragons, giants, and a few medium-sized humanoids.

In the rare situation that it does make sense to do, I won't hesitate to use Enlarge. It's just not anywhere near a good idea for the majority of fights when compared to rage.

And polymorph would only change me into a beast. Yes a few beasts can grapple, but if we're playing that game you don't actually need the grappler to do it, any character can (and I could enlarge them, too). The game statistics are replaced by the beast, so things like action surge, expertise in grappling, etc. are useless.

johnlent said:

As you already noted, your DPR will be secondary at best (unless a druid or ranger hooks you up with a death zone), so I probably would not even bother with 3 fighter (action surge enlarge, attack 1, grab, attack 2, knock prone, move, cunning action dash). At that point, you have effectively locked down one enemy and removed him from his formation. You can then either pummel him at your leisure (sneak attack!) or you can repeat the same process over and over and over etc.

Depending on your environment, Athlete might be amazing for you - climb up 80', drop enemy (28 dpr, assuming you have to spend your action each round grabbing someone). Or climb 40', grab drop, repeat. Mobile is similarly helpful. And of course, stacking a ring of jumping with the jump spell.

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I do have athlete, and winged boots, which are lots of fun. I use most of these tactics already (except as discussed the action surge to cast Enlarge). Not sure action surge alone is worth a 2-level investment. You really don't think the battlemaster maneuvers add anything? I'd figure the ability to add a bit of nova on a crit, or trip on an attack instead of using a shove action, or riposte for off-turn sneak attack damage, would all be (potentially) better than an extra rogue level.

Ooh, boots of flying are neat! Thats great if you already have them. And you are right, my grappler is a druid, so I am used to wildshape, not polymorph (ie I keep my barbarian and rogue class features). But as you said, flying slowly up is not optimal. Flying quickly up (HASTE!) is though. So, haste yourself with that action surge instead of enlarge, drag up 50*3 (would be 100*3, but half speed) and drop for a TON of damage.

Your odds of hitting and knocking prone are not as good as your odds of shoving and knocking prone. I assume you have expertise, +4 str, rage, so you are looking at an average of 27 on your athletics checks? That's gonna beat almost anything in the monster manual. (and you have lucky, so in the unlikely event of a bad roll, you can fix it). I mean, the little extra damage is nice, but if you job is holding the idiot on the ground while other people beat him to death, dont worry about it ya know?

Sadly there are no rules for "covering eyes" or "covering mouth" of a grabbed target in this edition. To me, those are ideal for your build. I guess you can add a silent image to the mix to get rid of the grappled targets line of sight (opaque cube of force), and since he cant stand or leave the square he cant disbelieve it. not as good as just shoving a ballgag in the wizards mouth, but its close. He also would presume he does not have line of effect (because he thinks its a solid wall).

johnlent said:

Your odds of hitting and knocking prone are not as good as your odds of shoving and knocking prone.

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Ah, good point. I'm better at shoving than hitting, and even then they'd get a save against the trip effect.

johnlent said:

Ooh, boots of flying are neat! Thats great if you already have them. And you are right, my grappler is a druid, so I am used to wildshape, not polymorph (ie I keep my barbarian and rogue class features). But as you said, flying slowly up is not optimal. Flying quickly up (HASTE!) is though. So, haste yourself with that action surge instead of enlarge, drag up 50*3 (would be 100*3, but half speed) and drop for a TON of damage.

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Heh yeah I love the boots. I'm also working on a trade for the Eagle Whistle from TotYP, which gives you a fly speed double your walking speed 3x/day. That should help me get to that 200' ceiling

Unfortunately Haste isn't available until AT13, which for me would be CL18 if I didn't detour into Fighter. But yeah that would be awesome. Hopefully I can get casters to drop it on me before then, or pick up a ring of spell storing or something.

If you do it right, you should be able to get up to the point where you can grab, fly and drop 2 times a round (action surge and extra attack, two targets at a time). Need to get base speed that is pretty amazing though (200up and down twice=800 feet, in three segments (move, cunning action, haste action), means 266 after the Whistle, or 133 after haste, or base 70. Barbarian 40, Mobile 10, Longstrider 10, Transmuters Stone 10 will get you there. 2*2*200=80d6 dpr. That's some tier 3 striker .

Sadly, size still a problem, so i guess thats usually only going to be 40d6 damage

Haha I like the way you think. No transmuter's stone in this guy's future--int 8, which is actually pretty smart for an orc-- but boots of speed maybe? Then with longstrider and mobile I'm at 60 base, doubled by the boots, doubled and turned to flight by the whistle, doubled by haste, comes to 480; bonus action dash makes it 960; haste dash makes it 1440; halved if I'm grappling makes it 770. Enough for 3 max height drops and one 170-foot drop in a turn, or 77d6 on a single target/144d6 on two targets. Or half that if I don't want to take the damage myself (i.e. I fly down to pick them up each time instead of dropping with them)