Net and Sharpshooter feat

Undrhil · May 26, 2017

I was looking at options for a Net fighter and I came upon something that I thought I should ask about.

So, the Net does not normally do any damage. This is a feature of the net. Instead, you attack with it at disadvantage for the chance of getting a Large or smaller creature restrained for a turn or two.

The Sharpshooter feat allows you to attack at long range without disadvantage, which is great for a Net wielder. However, I am wondering about the second benefit of Sharpshooter. That benefit says that you can take -5 to your attack rolls with a ranged weapon and add +10 to the damage. Now, I looked at the Special note for the Net and it doesn't say the Net cannot deal damage. In fact, that note doesn't even mention damage or lack thereof. The weapon table merely shows a - for damage for the Net. That seems to say that it deals 0 damage.

So, my question is simple: if I take the Sharpshooter feat, can I apply the -5 to my attack roll with the Net in order to add +10 to the damage with the Net?

KahlessNestor · May 26, 2017

I wouldn't interpret that -- as 0. I would be nore inclined to see it as Not Applicable, as in the property doesn't exist.

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Pauper · May 26, 2017

Yep, that would be my interpretation as well. Note that the general rule is that melee weapons add Strength to damage and ranged weapons add Dexterity to damage (see "Damage Rolls", Player's Basic Rules, p.74), so if the 'base' damage for the net were really zero (rather than 'not applicable'), then the net would do 0+Dex damage out of the book. So if you're going to rule that Sharpshooter allows the net to deal +10 damage, then it should actually deal Dex+10 damage.

The net is already a weird beast as it is -- it's listed among the ranged weapons, but has the 'thrown' property, whose only function is to allow a melee weapon to be used for a ranged attack. It's not very well-designed.

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Pauper

kalani · May 26, 2017

Sharpshooter however gets rid of disadvantage for long range as you said; the alternative is also crossbow expert to get rid of disadvantage in melee. Either way, you really need one (or both) of these feats to use a net properly. I personally prefer Crossbow Expert, as you can follow up a net attack with a bonus action Hand Crossbow Attack (hopefully with advantage after restraining the target), and then have a free hand to reload the HXbow. Works great with Rogues who love SA.

If you end up with both, you can always use the Sharpshooter benefit to gain the +10 damage on the HXbow attack.

Pathkeeper24601 · May 31, 2017

Pauper said:
The net is already a weird beast as it is -- it's listed among the ranged weapons, but has the 'thrown' property, whose only function is to allow a melee weapon to be used for a ranged attack. It's not very well-designed.

I think they made some last minute changes that they didn't think through. My opinion is that Net makes more sense being STR based. I think that either it was originally a Melee weapon with range or that Thrown was supposed to define a ranged STR weapon. Note how Dart has both Thrown and Finesse, taking advantage of the generic "or" definition of Finesse to allow both STR and DEX.

Pathkeeper24601 · May 31, 2017

kalani said:
Sharpshooter however gets rid of disadvantage for long range as you said; the alternative is also crossbow expert to get rid of disadvantage in melee. Either way, you really need one (or both) of these feats to use a net properly. I personally prefer Crossbow Expert, as you can follow up a net attack with a bonus action Hand Crossbow Attack (hopefully with advantage after restraining the target), and then have a free hand to reload the HXbow. Works great with Rogues who love SA.

If you end up with both, you can always use the Sharpshooter benefit to gain the +10 damage on the HXbow attack.

Note that throwing a Net you can only make a single attack (small 'a'). This includes any bonus actions that give an attack. It also means if you make a non-net attack in a round, you can't follow it up with an attack.

Cascade · May 31, 2017

Pathkeeper24601 said:
Note that throwing a Net you can only make a single attack (small 'a'). This includes any bonus actions that give an attack. It also means if you make a non-net attack in a round, you can't follow it up with an attack.

Crawford and Sageadvice would disagree with you...
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/08/03...ck-with-a-net-and-then-with-an-hand-crossbow/
and
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/09/09...-and-then-the-hand-crossbow-on-the-same-turn/

The net attack limitation applies only to the action/reaction/bonus action you use to attack with the net.

I have never seen the bonus action attack or a action surge not be permitted. You don't get your "extra" attack(s) with that action use when you throw the net.
This combo works pretty well with a rogue/fighter class; net attack, bonus attack with a hand crossbow getting advantage and sneak and then "usually" giving some of the party advantage. If the target doesn't use an attack or an action to remove the net, you still have all of your attacks next round using just one hand crossbow.

Pathkeeper24601 · Jun 1, 2017

Cascade said:
Crawford and Sageadvice would disagree with you...
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/08/03...ck-with-a-net-and-then-with-an-hand-crossbow/
and
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/09/09...-and-then-the-hand-crossbow-on-the-same-turn/

The net attack limitation applies only to the action/reaction/bonus action you use to attack with the net.

I have never seen the bonus action attack or a action surge not be permitted. You don't get your "extra" attack(s) with that action use when you throw the net.
This combo works pretty well with a rogue/fighter class; net attack, bonus attack with a hand crossbow getting advantage and sneak and then "usually" giving some of the party advantage. If the target doesn't use an attack or an action to remove the net, you still have all of your attacks next round using just one hand crossbow.

I have not seen that one before. I stand corrected.

Hriston · Jun 1, 2017

Pauper said:
The net is already a weird beast as it is -- it's listed among the ranged weapons, but has the 'thrown' property, whose only function is to allow a melee weapon to be used for a ranged attack.

Actually, the thrown property allows any weapon to be used to make a ranged attack without having to have ammunition. This makes it clear that thrown weapons are not considered pieces of ammunition and don't follow the rules for ammunition, such as being drawn as part of an attack. All ranged weapons and all weapons that can be used to make ranged attacks have either the thrown or ammunition property. A weapon needs to have one or the other to in order to have a range and be used to make ranged attacks, which means that the net and dart would be useless as anything but improvised weapons if they didn't have the thrown property because they are ranged weapons that don't use ammunition.

Pauper · Jun 1, 2017

Hriston said:
All ranged weapons and all weapons that can be used to make ranged attacks have either the thrown or ammunition property. A weapon needs to have one or the other to in order to have a range and be used to make ranged attacks, which means that the net and dart would be useless as anything but improvised weapons if they didn't have the thrown property because they are ranged weapons that don't use ammunition.

This is incorrect -- what makes a weapon a ranged weapon is being classified as a ranged weapon. ("Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged." Basic Rules, p.45) Since the rules for combat specify what you do with a ranged weapon, a ranged weapon without the thrown or ammunition property would not be considered an improvised weapon; it would be a ranged weapon.

The way I read the 'thrown' tag is that you need a separate weapon for each attack you make unless you recover the weapon during combat. (Note the 'thrown' tag on the javelin and spear, which represent this quality.) This also explains why the dart, a different ranged weapon, also has the 'thrown' tag. From that perspective, my original assertion of the function of the 'thrown' tag (to allow a melee weapon to be used at range) is incorrect -- it also represents a weapon that is 'expended' when used to make a ranged attack (as opposed to expending ammunition).

It would be theoretically possible to have a ranged weapon with neither the thrown or ammunition traits; it would be a ranged weapon that is not expended when thrown, but also does not require ammunition to use. While I can't imagine any 'realistic' weapons that would fall into this category, I could imagine a number of fantasy weapons from literature and TV/film that would. (One made-up example -- a flamethrower powered by a bound fire elemental in a backpack. The weapon is clearly not 'thrown', but the elemental also doesn't count as 'ammunition'. Of course, it would be just as likely that such a weapon would be modeled as a magical item allowing the use of a spell (like Burning Hands) rather than using the weapon table.)

And with that, we're getting a bit far off the AL focus of this forum, so I'll stop there. Bottom line, though, is that if the net didn't have the 'thrown' property, the most reasonable interpretation would be that it is a 'reusable' ranged weapon (and given that most combat nets are reusable, via cords or ropes attached to the net that allow it to be recovered during combat -- see 'Retarius' -- that wouldn't be an outlandish assumption), not that it would be an improvised weapon.

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Pauper