D&D 5E Feelings on Ranged Damage

Saelorn said:

That's why the guard is just a guard, with 11hp, who can be killed in a single shot from a sneaking rogue or hunting ranger. Save the level 8 knight for someone who is truly fantastic.

Most people are chumps, especially compared to the PCs. Not every enemy should be a challenge.

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Worth noting that bounded accuracy attempted to deal with this in 5e - in that a level 1 mook still has an AC and Hit Bonus that remains reasonably relevant. Challenge level then relies on HP and skills/multi attacks, and number of opponents.

Story wise, this means that fronting off against Joe Guardman at level 6 means you're likely to 1-hit kill, but he might stab to once or twice first (dice depending). Or if the hero doesn't rest well, Joe Guardman might kill him. So lobbing cheap mooks at high level PCs is still a perfectly viable option - Line up 32 Goblins (CR 1/4) against a level 6 party of 4 and you'll get some interesting results (everything is a one shot kill for a PC, but at AC 15 the Goblins will dodge quite often). Do this at 3e, 3.5e, or 4e and the party AC will be so high they just won't get hit, and their ATT bonus just won't miss.

Good design work in 5e......

As others have said, D&D, particularly high level D&D, is not the system to use if you want dramatic, one-shot kills. (And if you want to try to do that, the assassin rogue is the class designed for it.)

I'm currently running a 6 person, 6th level party, consisting of a wolf barbarian, life cleric, vengeance paladin, hunter ranger, swashbuckler rogue and diviner wizard. The Ranger has Archery Style, Sharpshooter and Colossus Slayer and easily does the most consistent damage in the party. (The paladin when smiting or the rogue when critting on a sneak attack have higher spike damage, but on a round-by-round basis the ranger leads the party in damage.)

As far as Critical Role is concerned, you're comparing a Beast Master Ranger without the Sharpshooter feat with an assassin rogue with the ability to Haste himself as a free action once per day (and they tend to have one big fight in a given day rather than a series of smaller ones.) Of course the latter is going to deal out more damage.

Kalshane said:

As far as Critical Role is concerned, you're comparing a Beast Master Ranger without the Sharpshooter feat with an assassin rogue with the ability to Haste himself as a free action once per day (and they tend to have one big fight in a given day rather than a series of smaller ones.) Of course the latter is going to deal out more damage.

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And remember, Critical Role is played with a lot of homebrew and houserules. Matt Mercer is very upfront about that.

Whithers said:

It is the story dynamic. It eliminates the one hit one kill possibility, a dynamic that both in fiction and when I trained as a soldier I find/found appealing. (Which was a little easier for me since I was issued a grenade launcher.) In story terms it is easier to justify the slit throat of a sleeping victim or unperceptive guard as the quick kill. Melee is easier to fudge that way, but may be undesirable. When you are round after round sticking a watchman with a half-dozen arrows it is really difficult to take him out before he sounds the alarm.

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If the DM presents a scenario where the players have a chance of stealthily taking out Sentries, then the Combat rules may not be the best way to resolve this particular challenge. Depending on the approach taken by the player(s) it could be resolved with a single Stealth(dexterity) check or maybe even no check at all if the DM determines their approach is so good it's an automatic success.

While it may not be common 5e does support this style of play too.

BookBarbarian said:

And remember, Critical Role is played with a lot of homebrew and houserules. Matt Mercer is very upfront about that.

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One of which is allowing Sharpshooter with daggers (RAW says Ranged Weapons only - daggers are melee (thrown)weapons)

A rogue with a bow is half as good as a Rogue with a bow due to No. of attacks (crossbow expert feat notwithstanding)

BookBarbarian said:

If the DM presents a scenario where the players have a chance of stealthily taking out Sentries, then the Combat rules may not be the best way to resolve this particular challenge. Depending on the approach taken by the player(s) it could be resolved with a single Stealth(dexterity) check or maybe even no check at all if the DM determines their approach is so good it's an automatic success.

While it may not be common 5e does support this style of play too.

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I think the reason it is not common is because anyone who knows the rules knows it is forced. Anyone who wants that risk knows that all the risk is against the player if they take the action. Therefore, there is never a reason to attempt the dramatic action. Some adaptation of a Plot Point system could be added, but that still eliminates the die roll. In much the same way that all video games are really just elaborately skinned versions of Pong, all RPGs are an elaborately dressed game of "shooting dice" with improv interpretation of the roll as the reward. The random element is I think essential to the game, with a referee to maintain the suspension of disbelief by editing out the absurd. (A fire elemental catching a water elemental on fire being an example.)

It occurs to me that a house rule could be effected as follows:

Player of Ranged Character: I use stealth to get within range to attack the tower guard. (PC rolls 23)
DM (Rolls Guard's Perception): You move within 40' of the 20' tall platform and now have a clear shot within range of your short bow. (Guard rolls 8) You have surprise.
Player: I roll 21 to hit.
DM: That hits, roll a d6 for damage and add your dex mod.
Player: I have 6. Exploding. I have 4. Explode again. I have 5. And again. I get another 5. And a 3. I have +2 Dex; so 6+4+5+5+3+2=25.

This could be used equally with melee character and applies for anyone on surprise round. This would dramatically increase the spike damage of a Rogue, especially Assassin, in surprise rounds. However, there has already been a suggestion that their spike damage as is may be more at issue. Since the math used is simple and from already existing rolls, the only time delay is rolling the additional damage the stealthed character makes.

This also makes stealthier weapons more effective for stealth attacks. Exempli gratia, a dagger is stealthier than a great sword. The ease of making such an attack with a dagger, using our numbers above means the dagger is more likely to explode for a lot of damage as it quietly slits a throat or jiggles in a spleen. A great sword is harder to wield so precisely, and doesn't explode as well. (Then there is history, such as the real great swords - flamberge, never even being sharpened but used as clubs to knock people off their horses and then club them to death by crushing them with their own bashed in armor.)

I may house rule that in as it adds a little stealth to everyone and meets the story dynamic for which I am looking. It dramatically increases both Sneak Attack and Assassinate on the first attack when the target is surprised (does not know the Opponent is present and is not prepared for an attack). I suspect only test play can determine if the trade off is worth it.

Someone earlier suggested an exploding die option. This is my summation of positive possibilities for a mechanism so far.

Whithers said:

I think the reason it is not common is because anyone who knows the rules knows it is forced.

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That's a DM/Player integration problem. If you do not feel you can say to the DM "I'd like to try this", because up to that point they've been playing within the tightly confined structure of the "rules", then you and the DM are playing different gaming styles. That's not the fault of the system.

Whithers said:

In much the same way that all video games are really just elaborately skinned versions of Pong, all RPGs are an elaborately dressed game of "shooting dice" with improv interpretation of the roll as the reward.

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You clearly haven't played Last Guardian - I have not nearly cried at the end of a game of Pong.

Whithers said:

Player: I have 6. Exploding. I have 4. Explode again. I have 5. And again. I get another 5. And a 3. I have +2 Dex; so 6+4+5+5+3+2=25.

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While this could be exciting - the Maths here kinda scuppers your intentions. With a D6, you explode half the time. The maths of exploding d6's on a 4+ are the same as flipping coins. Therefore, to achieve your 25 points of damage, you'd need 4 Heads....or a 1 in 16 chance. Realistically you'll be rolling (1-3)d6+mod damage instead of 1d6+mod damage, which isn't impressive damage levels.....with the flat +10 Damage from Sharpshooter you're rolling the equivalent of 3d6+weapon+Mod and is therefore significantly better almost all of the time.


At the end of the day a houserule is a houserule - you can really do whatever you like and as long as your players enjoy it, then that's doing it "correctly". Most of the balancing and theory hammer chat is about protecting players, or purely for the joy of theory. If everyone at your table likes it, then it is correct.

However, it seems to me your major issue is that you're playing D&D - there are other much more narrative & RP systems out there that will cater to your story needs.

Zardnaar said:

Ranged rogues look good but then you figure out that melee ones deal a lot more damage. This is because they can dual wield. This lets you get in an extra d6 damage and doubles the chance of getting a sneak attack in.

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You could pick up Crossbow Expert and now you're effectively "dual-wielding" a d6 weapon with range: "melee to 120 ft." and you even get your Dex mod to damage on the bonus-action attack. If you want a melee rogue to do better (situationally), you'll have to dig deeper and look at melee cantrips and off-turn sneak attacks the ranged rogue can't get (Sentinel, multiclass for riposte, etc.).

I love 5e, but the existence of Crossbow Expert is easily my least favorite thing about it, almost entirely because of the way it breaks the melee/ranged barrier. I houseruled this feature of the feat out in my current campaign, one of only two feat nerfs (the other is that -5/+10 from GWM doesn't apply to bonus-action attack from PAM. Edit: I may apply the same logic to Crossbow Expert/Sharpshooter interaction next campaign).

Hillsy7 said:

You clearly haven't played Last Guardian - I have not nearly cried at the end of a game of Pong.

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Nope, but I did have a cardiac infarction when my character died at the end of NN2 OC. Facts don't care about my feelings. However, mechanically, all video games come down to making the plotted points on the screen collide or evade. The rest is just window dressing to distract us from that math.

With a D6, you explode half the time.

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Only if the difference between the Stealth and Perception rolls is 15-19. If the Stealth roll is 42 and the Perception roll is 2, then [(42-2)/5=8]. On a d4, d6, & d8 - it is an infinite exploding die auto death. On a d10 it explodes on 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, & 10. If the Stealth roll is 17 and the Perception roll is 12, then the die only explodes on the final number (d4=4, d6=6, etc.). If the Stealth roll is 18 and the Perception roll is 15, then there is no exploding die from the stealth attack. If the Stealth roll is 14 and the Perception roll is 15 or higher, the character is spotted and there is no Stealth attack - no surprise. And as structured, this comes into play during the surprise attack of a surprise round, not as a general sneak attack or non-surprise attacks.

Greg Benage said:

You could pick up Crossbow Expert and now you're effectively "dual-wielding" a d6 weapon with range: "melee to 120 ft." and you even get your Dex mod to damage on the bonus-action attack. If you want a melee rogue to do better (situationally), you'll have to dig deeper and look at melee cantrips and off-turn sneak attacks the ranged rogue can't get (Sentinel, multiclass for riposte, etc.).

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I took that feat for my halfling rogue, when I jumped into the last few sessions of a PotA game, because I didn't want to drag the party down. It was almost a non-factor, though, because it turns out that the ancient masters who created the magic weapons in the setting never got around to making many magical hand crossbows. To contrast, they were way into daggers and shortswords.