D&D 5E Wizarding against giants with a party full of martials

Gonna be joining a SKT campaign soon-ish. I will be playing a divination wizard, starting @ lvl 8. The rest of the party are martials (2 archers and 3 frontliners). They are having a pretty hard time from what I hear.

Anyway, I would like some help with my spell selection and combat tactics (I already got some good advice, but I'd like to get some further insight as far as my wizard's tactics will be concerned).

I looked at the MM's giants' stats, and here are my hit chances against saves and AC:
(excluding hill and storm giants atm, also excluding STR and CON saves since giants ace them)

Fire Giant: INT (75%), WIS (65%), DEX (60%), AC (55%), CHA (50%)
Stone Giant: CHA(80%), INT (75%), AC (60%), WIS (55%), DEX (50%)
Frost Giant: DEX (80%), INT (80%), AC (70%), WIS (60%), CHA (55%)
Cloud Giant: DEX (75%), AC (75%), INT (70%), WIS (50%), CHA (50%)

So, any suggestions about what my combat tactics should be against each of the given giant type above?

My main concern is what I am going to do against fire giants, since with their higher AC, I guess they will be the ones giving the most trouble to the group. I was thinking of slow or phantasmal force and following up with lightning bolts if positioning makes it profitable, but neither of the two (ie slow and phantasmal force) leaves me completelly satisfied (especially phantasmal force since it only affects one target). But I would like opinions on when I am up against the other giant types as well, if possible.

Also, I haven't forgot about portent, but I would like to know my best course of action without relying on it, since the portent dice will not always comply.

Please no spoilers about the campaign, such as specific encounters.
Thanks in advance!



ps: If it will make a difference, here is what I know about the party at this moment.
1) Human Fighter 8
2) Elf ranger 5/ fighter 3 (arcane archer)
3) Dwarf Gunslinger 8 (I guess it's the Mercer's one)
4) Goliath Druid 4/ Barb 4 (I am assuming moon)
5) Aaasimar Paladin (Conquest) 8
6) Human Cleric (Light) 8 (rarely makes it)
7) Wizard (Diviner) 8 - me...

I am not sure looking into the MM to win the game is the right way to do it. At my table I would consider it unfair play.

Hi,

Optimization is always an excellent choice, especially in an optimization forum!

The group has damage covered, so the usual advice for wizards applies maximally to you: Buff, debuff, battlefield control and utility.

Phantasmal Force is vs Int, so it's good; only one target so choose the right target. Also versatile in its effect. Banishment vs Cha is also likely useful. Again, single target! But Grease is still the word, Darkness might be useful (I forget if giants can see in the dark), Polymorph is a great way to give a meatshield low on hp lots of temporary hp, and none of these require saves at all. (Polymorph is sometimes a problem in enclosed spaces, but if the encounter has room for giants, it also has room for a T-Rex!) Next level is Wall of Force, which is popular. Magic Jar is also coming up, and its vs Cha so... maybe? Leomund's Hut for a safe space. Animate or Conjure stuff to help out. Arcane Eye? Hypnotic Pattern, Confusion and Fear are not vs an easy save, but if you can target 2 giants, you have better than 75% of getting at least one; mass suggestion in 3 levels doesn't even require concentration.

Hopefully, you won't need to concentrate as much on defense, with so many warriors to cover behind!

Anyway,

Ken

My opinion based both on the situation you will be entering and the fact that the Wizard is from the school of Divination, is that you should concentrate less on doing damage and more on spell that will buff your allies while debuffing the enemy. The party already has plenty of damage output and healing. What they lack is the consistent background support that a Divination Wizard can give them with the right spell selection not only in combat but also out of combat.

Treantmonk has put together an excellent guide for creating this type of wizard. http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?450158-Treantmonk-s-Guide-to-Wizards-5e

I have to agree with [MENTION=75153]Ovarwa[/MENTION] - your party has damaged covered. Plus giants are sacks of HPs that would just suck up slot after slot.

I would really go for debuff, especially multi-giant debuffs. When I played SKT we had a bard who's Hypnotic Pattern (AoE wis save) was loved, and we occasionally had a wizard with Banish (CHR save).

Anything that denies their action is great. In terms of lesser debuffs, most of the giant types have very low AC, so granting advantage is not a big deal, forcing disadvantage is better but not to be relied on because of their high bonus to hit.

Both BigHouse and TreantMonk have great guides.

BTW, illusions are also worthwhile. If the giants suck (relatively) at Int, they are generally susceptible to your illusions too.

Remember: Your party has damage covered! Fireball@level8 isn't all that, and the other damage spells aren't much better.

Ask your GM how he deals with Conjure X spells.

Welcome to the Wizarding World. It's different.

Oh, replies!!!!
I had given up on this thread... I am so happy!
Going back to read through them and I'll edit here. Oh, and thank you very much!

Edit:
[MENTION=59057]UngeheuerLich[/MENTION]: You are absolutely right. I wont try to defend myself. At least I had the decency to tell the DM.
@Ovarwa: I think I'll be aiming at debuffing mainly, with some control on the side (the best control options are ahead). Out of combat utility too, ofc. Not sure about buffing. Having played sorcerers (with twinned), I find it really hard to justify picking buff spells with my wizard, since they will only affect one ally, with polymorph being the exception, since it's a really versatile spell (I guess the sorcerer spoiled me in that respect). Regarding the spells you mentioned, I am pretty much set on taking all of phantasmal force, banishment and poymorph (so that I can target 3 different saves with them, and since both banishment and polymorph would profit from low portent rolls). Phantasmal force seems a good choice against most giant types, banshment is especially useful against stone giants, and polymorph.... well.... it's polymorph. I am thinking of grabbing grease too (it would work nicely against frost and cloud giants), but I am hesitating, as it could hurt my ranged allies. I think I'll end up taking it, but not sure. Darkness gave me enough trouble trying to figure a way to use it in my party's advantage during combat (it's magical darkness, so darkvision does not cope with it), but I couldn't find any interesting way to have it help (due to radius and its other limitations). Thinking really hard if I should grab hypnotic pattern or not (it's a great spell, but its area of effect doesn't help much when dealing with giants, though it could be useful with other fights I suppose), haven't made my mind yet about it. Same goes with fear, ie I dont know if I should take it or not. I think I will leave it to the conquest paladin to take at his next level (an oath spell for them). The fear effect would be rather useful if I manage to stick it to fire giants (since they have the lowest wis save; apart from hill giants of course), but the fact that I need to get close, and that it doesn't exclude allies caught in its area of effect, dont make me thrilled at the prospect of selecting it (I could be convinced though you think there are good enough reasons for me to take it despite of some of its drawbacks). Arcane eye will be icked, definitely, but I cannot say the same about leomund's tiny hut. I know it's a great spell, but I dont really like it (so due to personal bias, I will not take it). Same goes (ie wont take them) for animate dead, conjure elemental(s) spells. They are great (and I was really considering conjure elemental + planar binding for the near future, since we have a moon druid who can help with the concentration issue), but I dont want to go down that road, as I would like my influence to be a bit more discrete, than just adding summons that can kill the enemies and take the spotlight from the other PCs. Also, summons go a bit against the character's personality (free will and all that), so I will save them for when I roll up my next wizard character (whenever that will be). About the next levels, I'll certainly try to take wall of force, forcecage, mass suggestion (and probably hold monster too), but there are a few spells that I really like (eg dream -which I will rework it somehow, but that's not the point here), so I'll try to make a compromise, picking spells that I like and spells that are very important (not that I dont like them too).
Also, how did you know??? Indeed it is my first time playing a wizard! Played one in 4e, but it's not the same. So many options to choose from (spells I mean)! It's quite overwhelming! I like these kind of headaches, cant wait for the campaign to begin!
@CydKnight: Yes, I am also thinking that this s the approach I should take (ie not to focus on blasting). That said, I am thinking of including both fireball and lightning bolt (lightning bolt because it would find easier use against the giants, cause they take up a 3x3 space, and they are tall too, so from the right place, I will probably be able to target lots of them, especially forst and cloud giants; and fireball, for fights against mooks, since I think the party is missing some good area damage; but frankly, because it's fireball). But that's about it. No other damaging spells (I get 9 extra spells to start with, so getting these two wont hurt me that much, I think). Also, yeah, treantmonk's guide is great. I've been reading it these last few days (along with BigHouse's and Avalongod's ones). Especially when trying to decide about spells, I've been skipping from one guide to the other, to compare how they rate them and to get more opinions. All 3 of them are excellent guides IMO.
@Blue: I'll be going with several debuffs, that's for sure. But I dont want to overdo it with concentration spells. Inevitably I will end up with several concentration combat spells, since I would like to cover attacking all different saves (save con and str) if possible, and probably also trying to cover for both area and single target debuffing if possible too. Hmmm, I was thinking of slow instead of hypnotic pattern (because slow has a better-bigger, so good against giants- area of effect, and it would help substancially my martials (lowering the giants AC, and taking away one of their attacks), but I am not sure. Do you think I should take hypnotic pattern instead (would prefer to pick just one of them). I see that every and each benefit from the slow spell, is awesome against fire giants (especially if they are in force), so that makes me wanna take slow. But generally, I am nt impressed much with this spell. It finds good application against multiple giants, and hypnotic pattern is a little worse than usual, due to how giants are huge and hypnotic pattern's AoE is not that big, but hypnotic pattern is generally the better spell. So I guess what I am asking is, does slow becomes good enough to prefer it against hypnotic pattern? Also, I kind of think that I dont wan to include Tasha's, due to it being concentration, but do you think it's worth picking up, to have it just in case I find myself out of higher level spell slots, or do you think it wont be that likely for me to have to use my concentration with a 1st level spell (ie Tasha's) to have to take it?

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This is what I had before I got these replies. Will try to proccess your suggestions and see how I should change things, but just in case, have a look and share your thoughts if you feel like it. Here it goes:


Wizard (diviner) lvl 8 (with 9 extra spell picks).

Note: * = can be any wizard spell of up to a 4th level spell.

1) Absorb elements
1) Detect magic (R)
1) Mage armor
1) Alarm (R)
1) Feather fall
1) Shield
1) ?
1) ?

2) Misty step
2) Mirror Image
2) Detect thoughts (C)
2) Suggestion (C) - I will probably get rid of it, as it doesn't fit my theme.
*) Phantasmal force (C)
*) Web (C)
*) Rope trick

3) Clairvoyance (C)
3) Counterspell
3) Dispell magic
3) Fireball
*) Fly (C)
*) Lightning bolt
*) Slow (C)
*) Water breathing (R)

4) Arcane eye (C)
4) Banishment (C)
4) Dimension door
4) Polymorph (C)

*) ?
*) ?

ps: Find familiar, and generally spells that bind a creature to me, are out, due to character theme (tries to fight fate, values free will, etc - it's a work in progress)

Hi,

Corran21 said:

Oh, replies!!!! I had given up on this thread... I am so happy! Going back to read through them and I'll edit here. Oh, and thank you very much! Edit: [MENTION=59057]UngeheuerLich[/MENTION]: You are absolutely right. I wont try to defend myself. At least I had the decency to tell the DM.

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He's as absolutely right as you want him to be. If you think it's wrong to read the MM, then it's wrong. Me, I think it's great that you looked through the MM and tried to optimize. Capable characters are usually better characters. Players who know the rules are better players. Besides, it's what a real wizard would do. You know, read books about his likely enemies. But that's just me.

.... Also, how did you know??? Indeed it is my first time playing a wizard! Played one in 4e, but it's not the same. So many options to choose from (spells I mean)! It's quite overwhelming! I like these kind of headaches, cant wait for the campaign to begin!

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I am old and wise. No, it's not the same at all. 4e is the most different D&D edition. I deleted your comments about the various spells, because a detailed analysis of which one is best is a) redundant, because there are two great 5e wizard guides, and b) unhelpful, because as a wizard, unlike a sorcerer, you can learn many spells and then try them, to see what works for you in your specific campaign. For me, the key to being a wizard is understanding that you can rewrite your character every day by choosing different spells. (Also true for clerics and druids but to a lesser extent because they don't have as many awesome spells.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------- This is what I had before I got these replies. Will try to proccess your suggestions and see how I should change things, but just in case, have a look and share your thoughts if you feel like it. Here it goes: Wizard (diviner) lvl 8 (with 9 extra spell picks). Note: * = can be any wizard spell of up to a 4th level spell. 1) Absorb elements 1) Detect magic (R) 1) Mage armor 1) Alarm (R) 1) Feather fall 1) Shield 1) ? 1) ? 2) Misty step 2) Mirror Image 2) Detect thoughts (C) 2) Suggestion (C) - I will probably get rid of it, as it doesn't fit my theme. *) Phantasmal force (C) *) Web (C) *) Rope trick 3) Clairvoyance (C) 3) Counterspell 3) Dispell magic 3) Fireball *) Fly (C) *) Lightning bolt *) Slow (C) *) Water breathing (R) 4) Arcane eye (C) 4) Banishment (C) 4) Dimension door 4) Polymorph (C) *) ? *) ? ps: Find familiar, and generally spells that bind a creature to me, are out, due to character theme (tries to fight fate, values free will, etc - it's a work in progress)

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What about finding a familiar who wants to be with you? /10 Anyway, Ken

Metagaming garbage.