D&D 5E [D&D 5e] Level 1 Max Min Fun DPR and AC

For level 1 I'm surprised no one has mentioned using a quarterstaff the polearm mastery with the dueling fighting style.

1d6+5+1d4+5 = 16 sustained damage at level 1.

It goes up to to 24.5 anytime you get the reaction attack of polearm master.

Quartz said:

Does Shield of Faith stack with a shield?

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Yes, the Shield in the spell name is figurative not literal and the spell does not say otherwise. There for per the rules of receiving bonuses from separate sources stacking being a spell and a physical shield they do stack. At least until a hit knock out that concentration.

Yunru said:

You can't do it without factoring in accuracy.
Here's a simple example, comparing the DPR of two otherwise identical fighters, one with GWM and the other with Polearm Master. The GWM has -5/+10, but the Polearm Master gets two attacks. While without considering accuracy it seems obvious (2d6+13 [20] vs. 1d10+1d4+6 [14]), watch what happens when you apply accuracy:

AC	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	21	22	23	24	25
Great Weapon Master	19	18	17	16	15	14	13	12	11	10	9	8	7	6	5	4	3	2	1	-	-	-	-	-
Polearm Master	-	-	-	-	-	13.3	12.6	11.9	11.2	10.5	9.8	9.1	8.4	7.7	7	6.3	5.6	4.9	4.2	3.5	2.8	2.1	1.4	0.7

Now if we say enemies evenly have an AC between 10 and 18 (which actually weights it towards GWM. In reality higher ACs are more common, favouring Polearm more):
GWM Average: 7
Polearm Master Average: 8.4

In fact, for an even distribution across AC 10 to 18, Great Weapon Master only increases DPR by 1.

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I am not saying your wrong but their are 2 considerations here.

1. Enemy selection is GM dependent which means what your saying will not be true all the time with every GM. Even in that range the only common enemies under CR1 for level 1 fights with a higher than AC15 are Guards at AC16 and Hobgoblin AC18. The majority are AC12 and under.

- For example, I just started a new group and they fought AC 8 Zombies on their first mission...

2. Players rolls can make all the difference. I roll BAD so me rolling 3 attacks will mean less damage because I commonly miss all the attacks, so more attacks, statistically should be more damage but when I am only ever getting on success in a round I do better with single powerful strikes. Our party high roller on other hand doesn't miss hardly ever so he only cares about max average on hit. So only worried about hit because its a lot of math for an arbitrary number.

3. You only need need 300 xp in a group before you level to 2 and the entire post is irrelevant.

I will consed The typical "rats in the cellar" is a thing and rats have AC10. So while I don't think its statistically relevant number at tables due to player/GM variation... sure lets play with "to hit"

Most players have a +5 attack at level 1 because its something they can control with point buy, standard array, and even rolling stats first and picking a class that fist those stats using the highest for their primary combat stat. Venus rat AC10

80% Polearm Master {1d10+1d4+6} = {14} x .8 = 11.2 DPR
55% Great Weapon Master (2d6+13) = [20] x.55 = 11 DPR

So for typical rat in the cellar murder they are pretty much the same. however if are the Raging Strength Barbarian I listed as #1 static damage....

55% Great Weapon Master (2d6+13 +2 RAGE) = [22] x.55 = 12.1 DPR

Your still going to out DPR that Polearm Master...so.. my #1 stands.

But that's not the majority of low level monsters you say? Well AC12 is.
70% Polearm Master {1d10+1d4+6} = {14} x .7 = 9.8 DPR
45% Great Weapon Master (2d6+13 +2 RAGE) = [22] x.45 = 9.9 DPR
...and the barbarian is scraping a head.

Now if your GM likes high AC monsters at level 1 so your fighting a Hobgoblin AC18 out the gate and you roll better "to hit" than me, and do at least average damage... your going to beat my 0 DPR from missing every round. But that's so much speculation at that point its not worth trying to measure in my opinion. Primarily because I don't remember any GM I have ever played with making me fight enemies at level with an AC higher than 12 because they were worried they would party wipe in the first game. That diminishes every level and by 5 the gloves are completely off. But this thread is about level 1 characters, not whats going to be best for you later on as that is a lot more complicated.

Elfcrusher said:

A quarterstaff does 1d8 when wielded with 2 hands, not 1d10.

Also, you are using a bonus action to cast Hex, which means he doesn't get his bonus attack in the first round. Since most fights are pretty short that's a big impact on DPR.

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Fixed the quarterstaff. Thanks for the catch. As far as hex, thats true but if they start out of melee range can cast it heading to engage it has 0 impact. Since that is scenario relevant and does not reflect in raw data then its not possible for me to weigh it. I could break that down into "First round Max DPR", "short combat max DPR," and "long combat Max DPR" but first round only and short 3 or less the "Single Fight Max Melee DPR (Limited Repeatable x3) Human Variant War Cleric" is going to win making those redundant entries.

...unless you have a contender vs the War cleric in 4-5 round range while these 2 builds are trying to catch up really the Static DPR Melee Barbarian I already listed is going to take that too.

FrogReaver said:

For level 1 I'm surprised no one has mentioned using a quarterstaff the polearm mastery with the dueling fighting style.

1d6+5+1d4+5 = 16 sustained damage at level 1.

It goes up to to 24.5 anytime you get the reaction attack of polearm master.

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So that's not a bad idea, however removed reactions because its more scenario based and the GM can for example hold enemies back an make you come to them. So in fairness I took reactions out to include sentinel due to unpredictability. As a result the Barbarian is going to beat out the 16 DPR with a 22DPR. (not factory unknown ACs, to hit, and player roles of course) If I added reactions back in, then the GWM barbarian could take an opportunity attack at an enemy moving away for 44DPR per round.. still winning but again not controllable.

you also mentioned:
Savage attacker, I think is better for reliability of damage 2d6+3 avg. 10 turning into avg. 13 (I believe) where Great weapon master adds +10 making an avg. 20 so its generally better to take GWM.
Charger, +5 damage is less than the +10 from great weapons master and limits bonus attacks based on the attack action instead of the dash. It could theoretically be better than Great weapon master on high AC enemies but in that case generally speaking Martial Arts or Polearm master would generally be better since both could do an avg. 5.5 damage instead of 5.

ClaytonCross said:

So that's not a bad idea, however removed reactions because its more scenario based and the GM can for example hold enemies back an make you come to them. So in fairness I took reactions out to include sentinel due to unpredictability. As a result the Barbarian is going to beat out the 16 DPR with a 22DPR. (not factory unknown ACs, to hit, and player roles of course) If I added reactions back in, then the GWM barbarian could take an opportunity attack at an enemy moving away for 44DPR per round.. still winning but again not controllable.

you also mentioned:
Savage attacker, I think is better for reliability of damage 2d6+3 avg. 10 turning into avg. 13 (I believe) where Great weapon master adds +10 making an avg. 20 so its generally better to take GWM.
Charger, +5 damage is less than the +10 from great weapons master and limits bonus attacks based on the attack action instead of the dash. It could theoretically be better than Great weapon master on high AC enemies but in that case generally speaking Martial Arts or Polearm master would generally be better since both could do an avg. 5.5 damage instead of 5.

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If you are favoring in -5/+10 without looking at accuracy you are doing it wrong. Your dor is meaningless doing that

ClaytonCross said:

Fixed the quarterstaff. Thanks for the catch. As far as hex, thats true but if they start out of melee range can cast it heading to engage it has 0 impact. Since that is scenario relevant and does not reflect in raw data then its not possible for me to weigh it. I could break that down into "First round Max DPR", "short combat max DPR," and "long combat Max DPR" but first round only and short 3 or less the "Single Fight Max Melee DPR (Limited Repeatable x3) Human Variant War Cleric" is going to win making those redundant entries.

...unless you have a contender vs the War cleric in 4-5 round range while these 2 builds are trying to catch up really the Static DPR Melee Barbarian I already listed is going to take that too.

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Oh, c'mon. Let's see graphs with average DPR (with error bars showing min/max) over a range of 10 rounds.

Better yet, a 3D graph with target AC as the z-axis.

ClaytonCross said:

I am not saying your wrong but their are 2 considerations here.

1. Enemy selection is GM dependent which means what your saying will not be true all the time with every GM. Even in that range the only common enemies under CR1 for level 1 fights with a higher than AC15 are Guards at AC16 and Hobgoblin AC18. The majority are AC12 and under.

- For example, I just started a new group and they fought AC 8 Zombies on their first mission...

2. Players rolls can make all the difference. I roll BAD so me rolling 3 attacks will mean less damage because I commonly miss all the attacks, so more attacks, statistically should be more damage but when I am only ever getting on success in a round I do better with single powerful strikes. Our party high roller on other hand doesn't miss hardly ever so he only cares about max average on hit. So only worried about hit because its a lot of math for an arbitrary number.

3. You only need need 300 xp in a group before you level to 2 and the entire post is irrelevant.

I will consed The typical "rats in the cellar" is a thing and rats have AC10. So while I don't think its statistically relevant number at tables due to player/GM variation... sure lets play with "to hit"

Most players have a +5 attack at level 1 because its something they can control with point buy, standard array, and even rolling stats first and picking a class that fist those stats using the highest for their primary combat stat. Venus rat AC10

80% Polearm Master {1d10+1d4+6} = {14} x .8 = 11.2 DPR
55% Great Weapon Master (2d6+13) = [20] x.55 = 11 DPR

So for typical rat in the cellar murder they are pretty much the same. however if are the Raging Strength Barbarian I listed as #1 static damage....

55% Great Weapon Master (2d6+13 +2 RAGE) = [22] x.55 = 12.1 DPR

Your still going to out DPR that Polearm Master...so.. my #1 stands.

But that's not the majority of low level monsters you say? Well AC12 is.
70% Polearm Master {1d10+1d4+6} = {14} x .7 = 9.8 DPR
45% Great Weapon Master (2d6+13 +2 RAGE) = [22] x.45 = 9.9 DPR
...and the barbarian is scraping a head.

Now if your GM likes high AC monsters at level 1 so your fighting a Hobgoblin AC18 out the gate and you roll better "to hit" than me, and do at least average damage... your going to beat my 0 DPR from missing every round. But that's so much speculation at that point its not worth trying to measure in my opinion. Primarily because I don't remember any GM I have ever played with making me fight enemies at level with an AC higher than 12 because they were worried they would party wipe in the first game. That diminishes every level and by 5 the gloves are completely off. But this thread is about level 1 characters, not whats going to be best for you later on as that is a lot more complicated.

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Yunru's post explained it clearly. You are now trying to shift goalposts just to be right. Rat's in the cellar were never the challenge and a PC that consistently only out DPR's a polearm master build against ray and lower AC isn't really much of a damage leader IMO.

Though there is a lost and incalculatable DPR component to GWM and that's the bonus action attack on enemy death. That actually is pretty common to cause with any 2 handed weapon in the early levels and considerably ups dpr at low levels when you have a chance of killing most enemies in 1 or 2 hits. It's actually the better part of the feat until you get to about level 3-5.

FrogReaver said:

Yunru's post explained it clearly. You are now trying to shift goalposts just to be right. Rat's in the cellar were never the challenge and a PC that consistently only out DPR's a polearm master build against ray and lower AC isn't really much of a damage leader IMO.

Though there is a lost and incalculatable DPR component to GWM and that's the bonus action attack on enemy death. That actually is pretty common to cause with any 2 handed weapon in the early levels and considerably ups dpr at low levels when you have a chance of killing most enemies in 1 or 2 hits. It's actually the better part of the feat until you get to about level 3-5.

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I will respond to both your posts at the same time.

So I did it my calculation based on what I can know 100%. That is the only way to put a strait answer. If your doing it scenario based, you need to out line the scenario then do that math for that. In my case, I made the scenario 100% hit rate because it is very strait forward and If I hit with all that attacks then the hit rate doesn't matter as that it is the actual out come. Now if you want to argue what ifs you have to set some qualifiers!

What's your perfect subject to attack and why? What it their HP and AC? If I am going to get a reaction why? and for the sake of comparison do then give every other ally an reaction why or why not?

You want a 4 round fight vs Hobgoblin AC18, starting 60ft away, you move first, then the Hobgoblin moves into you and ally (just so that you get a reaction with polearm master):


-------------Human Variant Fighter-------------
---Quarterstaff Versitial (1d8 + dex)
---16 Dex (1d6 + 3)
---dueling fighting style (1d6 + 5)
---Polearm master but strike (1d6 + 5)(1d4 + 5) = 16 DPR
---with Polearm master reaction attack (1d6 + 5)(1d6 + 5)(1d4 + 5) = 24.5 DPR
@ +5 "to hit" vs AC18 (40%)

Round 1: Move
Round 2: Attack with adjusted DPR 9.8
Round 3: Attack with adjusted DPR 6.4
Round 4: Attack with adjusted DPR 6.4
Total: 22.6 (or 19.2 if the hobgoblin makes you come to it by targeting another ally)

-------------Human Variant War Cleric (GWM)-------------
---Great Sword (2d6 + str)
---16 Str (2d6 + 3)
---Human Variant Feat: Great Weapon Master +10 (2d6 + 13)
---War Prist Bonus Action (2d6 + 13)(2d6 + 13)
---War Domain 1st level Spell: divine favor +1d4 (2d6 + 1d4 + 13)(2d6 + 1d4 + 13) =DPR 45
@ +0 "to hit" vs AC18 (15%)

Round 1: Move, cast divine favor
Round 2: Attack with adjusted DPR 6.75
Round 3: Attack with adjusted DPR 6.75
Round 4: Attack with adjusted DPR 6.75
Total: 20.25

-------------Human Variant War Cleric (Sentinel)-------------
---Great Sword (2d6 + str)
---16 Str (2d6 + 3)
---War Prist Bonus Action (2d6 + 3)(2d6 + 3)
---Sentinel reaction (2d6 + 3)(2d6 + 3)(2d6 + 3)
---War Domain 1st level Spell: divine favor +1d4 (2d6 + 1d4 + 3)(2d6 + 1d4 + 3)(2d6 + 1d4 + 3) =DPR 30
@ +5 "to hit" vs AC18 (40%)

Round 1: Move, cast divine favor
Round 2: Attack with adjusted DPR 12
Round 3: Attack with adjusted DPR 12
Round 4: Attack with adjusted DPR 12
Total: 36 (or 20 if the hobgoblin attacks you and not your ally)

So here it the problem with this, the great weapon master does a MINIMUM damage of 16 damage. We are listing here that it has a DPR of 6.75 however if it hits even once the HP11 hobgoblin is 100% dead, even if your fighting a thug with 32 hit points (which I believe is the highest HP below CR1 from the PHB/MM/DMG that you can expect everyone to have) their is no 2 hits that it can survive but a Human Variant Fighter, dueling fighting style, dueling fighting style with a minimum of 6 you need two hits to kill the hobgoblin and even with all 3 hits your not likely to kill the 32 HP thug with and average of 24.5 on 100% hit. If the Human Variant Fighter, dueling fighting style, dueling fighting style hits with all 3 rolls and rolls max damage it does 31 and the thug lives to the next round. If the GWM war Cleric hits twice even with minimum damage the it does 32 damage and kills the thug in the first round. This method of calculating DPR does not account for minim maximum damage limits nor does it account for the GM moving the hobgolin to an ally which means you halve to move to it and forfeit your polearm reaction which would mean the Human Variant Fighter, dueling fighting style, dueling fighting style DPR is 19.2 ... which becomes so situational that it is arbitrary. It basically means you can setup an exmaple fight to make polearm master or sentinel better if we are honest about it the max damage of static 100% is the least "what if this, What if that" scenario based exercise in futility. Looking a max possible damage we eliminate the "what ifs" and get to a solid number. Is it 100% accurate? No, of course not. but in the land of what ifs there is no solid ground so I just picked the closest thing.

ClaytonCross said:

...

In my case, I made the scenario 100% hit rate...

...

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Then this whole thread is meaningless.