D&D 5E Wizard build, possible multiclass?

ro · Jun 21, 2017

I'm trying to build a wizard character using point buy, and I am unsure of which decisions to make. What are the benefits and drawbacks of these options, or do you have other suggestions?

- I want a familiar, and the warlock familiar looks awesome: How much more worth it is a warlock familiar than a wizard familiar?
- What is the value of Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast?
- How significant would getting shield proficiency be?

Being a wizard sounds fun, but very squishy. I like the idea of getting up to three levels of warlock, but that would really slow down a wizard build. Also, I like the idea of picking up a level of fighter or cleric to gain armor and shields, but again, that would slow things down. Doing all of the above would block 9th level spells, which seems foolish.

Some builds I've wondered about:
Wr3/Wz17
Fi1 or Cl1/Wz19
Wr2/Wz 18
Fi1/Wr2/Wz17
Sr1/Cl1/Wz18
Ro1/Sr1/Wz18
Wz20

What do you think?

Blue · Jun 21, 2017

If you're multiclassing, you need to think "what am I giving up" as well as what are you getting.

All of the above (except Wizard 20) you will be lagging behind higher level spells known, and in many cases you will also be lagging behind in spell slots. There are plenty of good reasons to do that, but it's a hefty price and make it with your eyes open.

A less obvious is that these will also hurt your ability scores (/feats) to some degree. The first part is that ASIs come by class level, so a Warlock 3/Wizard 4 is just getting their first when everyone else got it 3 levels ago and are about to get another at 8th. The other way these can hurt your ability scores is that to multiclass requires 13s - for a fighter or rogue having a 13 DEX is right in line with what you want, but a 13 WIS or CHR may not be what you want and may take points away from other things (INT, DEX, CON) that you do.

Eldritch Blast will use your CHR to hit and Agonizing Blast will use CHR to damage. If you aren't planning on having a high (16+) CHR it's really debatable if it's worth it. Also remember that as a wizard your main gig is casting spells - action economy won't have you casting a spell and doing an EB in a round. Unlike the Warlock with very limited slots, when I play a primary caster I find myself usually casting spells, cantrips are a minority of my actions. That said, a wizard who specializes in solving problems outside of combat with spells and has a (good CHR) Eldritch Blast to fall back on in combat isn't a bad idea, just one that would need to be built carefully.

Familiars are cool, but since they use your action economy they are much better out-of-combat then in. They don't offset a spells level and a half worth of slots and wizard spells know in terms of coolness factor.

A shield is nice +2 to AC. You will want a free hand for casting (or the warcaster feat) so if you have a shield you aren't also holding a weapon, magical implement, or what-have-you. That said, you can always sheath and redraw thsoe, so it's still nice. Cleric would still give you spell slots as well as some tasty cleric cantrips (guidance) and 1st level spells (healing, bless) at the cost of at least 13 WIS, Fighter has lots of nice bits including Action Surge (which CAN cast two full spells in a round as long as you don't cast any bonus action ones) and 13 DEX is easy, but doesn't even advance your spell slots.

As a personal preference (vs. advice like above), I wouldn't want to spend more than one level outside wizard before reaching mid levels for a concept that I wanted to function as a wizard. If I had a concept that functioned as something else, that's a different story.

Good luck with whatever you go for!

Ovarwa · Jun 21, 2017

ro said:
I'm trying to build a wizard character using point buy, and I am unsure of which decisions to make. What are the benefits and drawbacks of these options, or do you have other suggestions? - I want a familiar, and the warlock familiar looks awesome: How much more worth it is a warlock familiar than a wizard familiar? - What is the value of Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast? - How significant would getting shield proficiency be? Being a wizard sounds fun, but very squishy. I like the idea of getting up to three levels of warlock, but that would really slow down a wizard build. Also, I like the idea of picking up a level of fighter or cleric to gain armor and shields, but again, that would slow things down. Doing all of the above would block 9th level spells, which seems foolish. Some builds I've wondered about: Wr3/Wz17 Fi1 or Cl1/Wz19 Wr2/Wz 18 Fi1/Wr2/Wz17 Sr1/Cl1/Wz18 Ro1/Sr1/Wz18 Wz20 What do you think?

W20 is a great option. You get the best spells in the game fastest. Abjurer will make you less squishy, but it's not the only great subclass choice. Bladesinger provides extra defenses too, also awesome. Cl1/W19 is another great choice, adding medium or even heavy armor, some other benefits, especially knowing all level1 Cleric spells. But you delay your wizard spells. F1/W19 is another great choice. Heavy Armor, a combat style (probably +1AC), Con proficiency. Weapon proficiencies only matter if you plan to mix it up in melee. Shield proficiency too. An abjurer in heavy armor is still squishier than a real martial character, but is sturdier than many arcane casters. A variant human can start the game with Heavy Armor Mastery, for even more damage mitigation. All of your other suggestions are meh, bad or worse, unless you're going for a fun build and do not care about optimization. Getting level 3 spells at level 5 is better than getting them at level 6, and much better than at level 7. A fireball is Awesome Power at level 5 but not at level 9. EB is almost worthless for you, because boosting Cha instead of Int to make it effective makes your character worse as a wizard. Charisma is usually a dump stat for you, but any of the Warlock options require at least a 13 just to qualify. If you plan to actually attack with it, you need to invest even more. So Int, and Cha, and Dex (for AC), and Con (for HP).... Kind of horrible. Etc. Anyway, Ken

Volund · Jun 24, 2017

W20 is probably your best option. It's true wizards are squishy but with a 16 Dex and Mage Armor you will have an AC 16 which is as good as a rogue or a great weapon fighter at the same level. If you are dead set on wearing armor, F1 or Cl1 are really your only options and between the two I think Cl1 is the better one, especially if your party doesn't have a cleric already. I might start like this:

Knowledge domain, Var Human, Res (Con) feat
9 13 13 15 14 8 point buy
9 14 14 16 14 8 after racial/feat mods
scale mail + shield + Dex mod = AC 18, hp 10
Cleric Skills: History, Religion
Domain Skills: Arcana, Nature
Racial Skill: Investigation
2 more background skills
Cantrips: Guidance, Light, +1 (I would skip sacred flame b/c you probably won't use it much once you have firebolt at level 2)
Spells: Healing Word, +2 (Sanctuary, Bless or Cure Wounds?), and Command and Identify domain spells

You would be the party's lore master with proficiency in all of the intelligence skills and the Guidance cantrip to help your skill checks. You don't have any offensive spells at level one but that's what your crossbow is for.

F1 would get you Second Wind, a fighting style, all armor and weapon proficiencies, con save proficiency, and a fat d10 of hp at level 1. I don't rate this as high as Cl1 mainly because you are giving up one level of spell slot progression as well as some useful cantrips and spells you could use throughout your wizard career.

ro · Jun 26, 2017

Thanks for your input! I've narrowed down my options quite a bit. I'm looking at Deep Gnome for race.

A one level Fighter dip would give +1 AC from fighting style and Con save proficiency, which allows me to take Resilient (Dex) for my first feat.
A one level Cleric dip has Wis save proficiency, which overlaps somewhat with Gnome Cunning. I would have to take Resilient (Con), and Dex would be left out.

How valuable is the Dex save?

If I go Cleric,
Knowledge Domain would give Command, Identify, and two doubled skills.
Arcana Domain would give Detect Magic, Magic Missile, one skill and two extra Wizard cantrips.

How would you compare these?

Also, on Mage Armor, it only lasts 8 hours, which would require two castings between long rests (and a third if you get woken up at night). That seems like a big expense. How is Mage Armor worth it?

Ovarwa · Jun 26, 2017

Hi,

Mage Armor is necessary for a W20 in some games but not in others. Worth trying to cower behind the other PCs and not get hit so you can cast something that makes you actually useful.

Resilient Dex is usually best taken *never*. Your first two ASIs are almost certainly +2 Int and +2 Int. Alert is better than Resilient Dex. Lots of other things better too.

F1 or Cl1 obviates that need.

If you really want to be a wizard who can take the hits, try Variant Human, F1/AbjurerX, Heavy Armor Mastery@1, Defensive Style, real shield and heavy armor.

VHuman Clerics with Heavy Armor (and Mastery) work well too.

Slightly less tanky but still very good is a Cleric with Dex14 and medium armor.

No matter what you do, you will be relatively squishy! If you invest too many resources you'll still be squishy but you'll also be a poor wizard.

There are two very good guides on the optimization board, worth reading.

Anyway,

Ken

ro · Jul 12, 2017

Thanks for your input!

I've decided to be a Deep Gnome Lore Wizard X / Cleric 1 or 2. I intend to avoid melee. What level(s) would be best for dipping Cleric?

I'm trying to decide on a domain, and these are the options I'm considering:

Arcana 1:
- - 2 cantrips, Arcana proficiency
- - I would have expertise through LM, and four other skills chosen from Perception, Stealth, History Nature, Religion. All knowledge skills get expertise through LM.

Knowledge 1:
- - 2 languages, woo.
- - 2 Int skills with expertise?
- - The expertise overlaps LM. Same as above except 2 languages and that sixth skill vs. 2 cantrips from Arcana Domain.

Tempest 1:
- - Not very useful: martial weapons (I'm avoiding melee)
- - *Maybe* useful heavy armor, but only if I find magical armor that doesn't require strength that isn't picked up by other party members like the fighter.
- - Possibly useful: Wrath of the Storm, damage as melee reaction. Would fight for reaction spot with Shield, et al.

The big benefit for Tempest would be a 2nd level dip:

Tempest 2:
- - maxed lightning and thunder with Channel Divinity

estructive Wrath combos amazingly with Lore Master.
- - However, this costs my final ASI/Feat, and which level do you take it? Not up front, for sure.

Which domain would be best, and what level should I take it at? (Especially, if Tempest, when should I take the 2nd level.)

ccs · Jul 12, 2017

I've always found that what the "best" choice is varies upon the character I'm making. And by character I don't mean "this heap of stats, mods, & special abilities".

Take my 1/2ling warlock for ex. Eldritch Blast? I can see how that's a pretty good cantrip. But you know what? It completely doesn't fit the character that I'm envisioning. So it doesn't matter how much damage I could dish out with it, how often, or how I could mod it with further invocations. In this case, despite it being great mechanically, it's NOT the best choice.

So you've decided to play a deep gnome wizard/cleric. Great! Now tell us about him. Why is he a wizard? Why has he dabbled in religion enough to have become an actual cleric? What's he doing? Wants to do? What brought him to the adventuring life? Where's he from? etc etc etc

ZippytheSquirrel · Jul 26, 2017

build the character plan loosely, be willing to modify it as the character evolves and the party evolves. I ended up with a Wizard/Rogue after our rogue got deployed and we couldn't find one. had a blast and would totally do it again in a heartbeat. I kept levels balanced (ended 9/8). Don't be afraid to get unconventional. As a gnome I would totally pick up a rogue class. toss some skill into acrobatics, look for a good set of magic bracers or a good ring. pick up quick draw it makes freeing up your hands from your weapon a free action, rather than dropping a weapon as a free action.