D&D 4E Core 4E vs. Essentials

thanson02

Explorer
I never thought of it, because I immediately thought of the use of the word 'feat' in Celtic mythology, the moment I saw them in 3.0, so, to me, they were something extraordinary a hero could do that ordinary folk couldn't.

There are plenty of blah - have a small bonus, patch a bad design, pay your taxes - feats in D&D (every ed that has feats, anyway), but there're always some good ones worthy of the label, too. Great Cleave in 3.0 certainly felt like a feat a mighty hero might perform, for instance.

And in 3rd Edition/ 3.5 they were. But many of the abilities that were feat like were worked into the Power structure in 4E. I think someone once made a comment that the powers, at least with the Martial Classes, were more feat like then the feats in 4E.
 

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thanson02

Explorer
Interesting, I know themes became pretty popular but I felt like they were an unnecessary addition to the chargen process from day 1. The best-written ones are those that grant class skills to players who want to play a pious fighter or whatever, and as a DM I'd rather just houserule out the concept of class v. non-class skills. And I'd rather the original dev team would have dropped the concept to begin with, so I don't have to house rule it. ;)

And here is one area that I thought Themes made more sense then granting Feats. Let' take the Ritual Spell caster Feat for example. You can provide a feat that gives it to you or you can have a Character Theme like Acolyte that grants it with a built in story element that makes sense in why you would have it. I guess it is preference. I would rather see a theme then just a feature that can magically come out of nowhere.

Whereas with feats, I'm not gaga in love with them on either side of the screen, and obviously I object to both feat taxes and exceptionally weaksauce feats. But feats do some things that themes don't: they fill in some otherwise dead-ish levels (assigning those two +1 stat boosts is often a non-choice), they provide design space for things like proficiencies and yes, even extra languages and skills, and perhaps most importantly feats allow the mechanics to reflect a character's expanding skillset as she levels.

Feats also provide design space for circumstantial advantages that don't work well as 1st-level freebies -- for example I understand why rangers were given Prime Shot, but frankly it's one of those niggly little bonuses that doesn't work well as part of a class, theme, background, or race package -- it would have done better as a feat. (Probably with a higher bonus.) Personally as a player I prefer feats that I can buff my basic stats with and then forget about, but there are players who like tactical advantages. And since each feat is a little chunk of advantage rather than an all-or-nothing package of advantages, a feat is the perfect vehicle for a circumstantial advantage that is opted into by players who want that advantage.

Flexibility to fill in the gaps, makes sense. :)
 

thanson02

Explorer
Personally, I've considered building classes around that idea. Pile of at-will effects that can apply to all abilities that involve some particular action. It'd actually work in 5e or 3.5/PF better than 4e, as 4e doesn't have coherent and intricate categories of action to apply to. Pathfinder has standard action attacks be a single specific type of action, which is why Vital Strike only applies to default attacks. 3.5 has a sizeable pile of things to work with, with Trips, Grapples, Charges, Partial Charges, which are only usable when you are restricted to single actions per turn, moves, double-moves, runs and more. Pathfinder inherits almost all of this. 5e, meanwhile, has Attack, Cast a Spell, Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Help, Hide, Ready, Search and Use an Object as defined actions.

Actually, what kind of action categorization does 4e have? From the Quick Start Rules, I can see that abilities are divided into Attack abilities, which is subdivided into Melee, Ranged, Close and Area, and Utility abilities, which don't seem to have subdivisions. Action-type-wise, it mentions Standard, Move, Minor and Free actions, with Opportunity, Immediate and triggered-Free Actions on other people's turns. Thinking about what I've been considering, one of the most basic ones, mechanically, would be turning Melee attacks into Close attacks, basically turning any Melee attack into a cleave, all the way up to valuable Daily abilities that happen to be Melee attacks by default.

4E has Standard Actions, Minor Actions, Move Actions, and Free Actions, along with opportunity actions and immediate actions (reactions) that have triggers associated with them. These can be swapped out with each other if need be so if you want to cash in you standard action for an additional move or minor action, you can. As for attack actions, PH1 has Melee and ranged attacks, grapple attacks, aid another, Bull rush, charge, Coup De Grace, crawl, delay escape, ready action, total defense, and use a power. In Unearthed Arcana: Combat Options in Dragon Magazine issue 425, they introduce Fumble rules, attack options including overrun, trip, disarm, and sunder. They also have additional rules for injuries, using action points, etc.

It is an interesting relationship with the powers and the combat actions one can take per turn. Personally, I thought they should have assigned a basic combat action to each power so Fighter Exploit X qualifies as a basic attack for the class, and Exploit Y qualifies as a Charge Attack for gameplay. That way too, if you ended up taking a Feat that effected basic attacks, then it would apply to all powers that have the Basic Attack Key Word. That would get complicated though really quickly, but when players look at their class, they would know that this is my basic attack, this is my ranged attack, this I can use for charge attacks, etc.
 

I'd give them something dynamic. In this vein my own game has a type of Inspiration (not quite like the 5e version) where you can leverage one of your character's attributes (which would include feat-type things, backgrounds, class, character traits, etc) to make something advantageous happen (or disadvantageous so you can regain Inspiration). This allows for a wide variety of chances to show your uniqueness and makes even fairly bland 'feats' into something that adds interest to the game.
I guess that's a way that you could do it, but it introduces a number of complications. First and foremost, when you declare that someone with a feat can do something cool, you're essentially saying that someone without the feat can't do that thing; and that's kind of lame, from an improvisational standpoint. Second, you're not establishing that they're any better at normal usage - the expert at arcane runes isn't any better at identifying them than anyone else, unless something weird is going on. Third, "making good stuff happen" can quickly get into the territory of the character being lucky rather than skilled; if the player can decide that a particular arcane rune belonged to whatever thing that the character happened to study and so it works a particular way, then in addition to controversial narrative-control stuff that's best avoided, it means the character just got lucky rather than them actually being more skilled. (Unless I'm mis-reading you on that last point.)

But the thing is, all of those issues can be avoided if you just a have feat called "Skill Focus: Arcana" that grants +5 to Arcana checks. Nobody is denied the ability to attempt something cool for not having the feat, even if the character who has this feat is more likely to succeed. The character is equally as better at mundane skill usage as in circumstantial ones. The character is actually better with Arcane Runes, rather than just being narrated into convenient situations. It's an elegant solution to providing that type of character customization, which unfortunately goes ignored because it's so straight-forward.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Think that would be me ... Celtic feats were active actions like powers
And in 3rd Edition/ 3.5 they were. But many of the abilities that were feat like were worked into the Power structure in 4E. I think someone once made a comment that the powers, at least with the Martial Classes, were more feat like then the feats in 4E.

Arguably even with spell casting... back when spells were rituals and the act of rushing one in the middle of combat could be seen as a Feat of Magic
 
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I guess that's a way that you could do it, but it introduces a number of complications. First and foremost, when you declare that someone with a feat can do something cool, you're essentially saying that someone without the feat can't do that thing; and that's kind of lame, from an improvisational standpoint.
I don't think this is true at all.

If your character has Inspiration and has feat 'Legerdemain' which gives him a slight edge in slight of hand that isn't to say that anyone else cannot do slight of hand. It simply says he could leverage that with his Inspiration to do something more interesting. In the right favorable circumstances some other character without that feat might accomplish the same thing, but this guy can CREATE that circumstance (within reason, the player has to come up with some sort of narrative 'lamp shade' at the very least).

Second, you're not establishing that they're any better at normal usage - the expert at arcane runes isn't any better at identifying them than anyone else, unless something weird is going on.
No, he WILL identify them (as long as he has Inspiration) when it matters to the player. Other character's won't. As to what benefits he gets on a routine basis, that's more variable, but due to the fact that this leveraging exists you don't HAVE to try to find some specific unique mechanic, it can be something like a static bonus applied to a fairly narrow category of situations.

Third, "making good stuff happen" can quickly get into the territory of the character being lucky rather than skilled; if the player can decide that a particular arcane rune belonged to whatever thing that the character happened to study and so it works a particular way, then in addition to controversial narrative-control stuff that's best avoided, it means the character just got lucky rather than them actually being more skilled. (Unless I'm mis-reading you on that last point.)
So what? First I don't have an issue with 'narrative-control stuff', there's nothing there to BE avoided! Secondly, if a player wants to characterize his PC's accomplishments as partly or even entirely luck then that's fine with me.

But the thing is, all of those issues can be avoided if you just a have feat called "Skill Focus: Arcana" that grants +5 to Arcana checks.
And that's exactly the blandness that was being railed against here! I'm not against a feat that does that, IN MY SYSTEM, because it can be leveraged with Inspiration and thus inherently becomes something more interesting. That was my point. Now, as a matter of design principle I'd give it a better name, like "Desciple of the White Order" or something and thus create some more interesting 'hook potential' there.

Nobody is denied the ability to attempt something cool for not having the feat, even if the character who has this feat is more likely to succeed. The character is equally as better at mundane skill usage as in circumstantial ones. The character is actually better with Arcane Runes, rather than just being narrated into convenient situations. It's an elegant solution to providing that type of character customization, which unfortunately goes ignored because it's so straight-forward.

It is ignored because its just number incrementation, and now every single character that is going to need to be good at arcana has to take the same feat. Granted, arcana may be a bit less central to most characters than 'hit harder with sword', so it isn't quite seen as the same degree of 'feat tax', but it has EXACTLY the same issue.

In essence what happens is these bland static bonus feats sort into two categories. Those which come up so often you cannot justify NOT taking them, and those which pertain to situations which come up too infrequently to really be worth expending a resource to acquire. There's likely some middle ground in there where something is frequently applicable but rarely critical, Arcana might be a good example, or 'rope use' or something like that. Usually you'll have one guy that picks each of the higher utility things in that group (2e NWPs generally worked this way) and its not bad, but designers cannot really avoid the other two categories.

Simply by adding the 'leveraging' mechanic every bland thing becomes a potential springboard for something interesting. In practice it adds a lot to a game, though clearly there are infinite varieties of preferences in games...

Anyway, this is a good fun topic, but I'm sure its pretty far off from the thread at this point! ;)
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
many of the abilities that were feat like were worked into the Power structure in 4E. I think someone once made a comment that the powers, at least with the Martial Classes, were more feat like then the feats in 4E.
Litterally, there was a Cleave at-will, for instance. ;)

In a lot of cases, though, it was certainly nice to be able to pick a low-level daily or encounter, rather than spend 6 or 8 or even 12 levels completing a chain or chains to pull some awesome trick 'at-will' which, in practice you might be able to set up one in a while - if a combat wasn't ended by whichever caster won initiative...
 

If your character has Inspiration and has feat 'Legerdemain' which gives him a slight edge in slight of hand that isn't to say that anyone else cannot do slight of hand. It simply says he could leverage that with his Inspiration to do something more interesting. In the right favorable circumstances some other character without that feat might accomplish the same thing, but this guy can CREATE that circumstance (within reason, the player has to come up with some sort of narrative 'lamp shade' at the very least).
I think that I don't understand enough about your system to make a coherent argument. I'm getting flashbacks to when I read FATE, and that's not fair to you.

It is ignored because its just number incrementation, and now every single character that is going to need to be good at arcana has to take the same feat. Granted, arcana may be a bit less central to most characters than 'hit harder with sword', so it isn't quite seen as the same degree of 'feat tax', but it has EXACTLY the same issue.
It's not just numbers going up. It's also the underlying reality which those numbers represent. The character doesn't just have +5 to Arcana checks. The character is also an expert at identifying arcane runes, and everything else that falls under the skill. It gives you the opportunity to play a character who is exceptionally good at one type of thing. It might not mean much from a mechanical standpoint, but giving anyone a specialty can work as a character hook. Even the old Ghostbusters game from West End had that going for it.
In essence what happens is these bland static bonus feats sort into two categories. Those which come up so often you cannot justify NOT taking them, and those which pertain to situations which come up too infrequently to really be worth expending a resource to acquire.
And that's why the better sorts of point-buy games don't ask you to choose between the two. When the designers of early Shadowrun noticed that players were only taking combat and magic skills at the expense of anything flavorful or circumstantial, they added in an entirely new category of skill to cover obscure knowledge and hobbies, so you don't lose your combat edge by also knowing about elven wines.

The game at hand could also have gone the same route. They could have left all of the combat stuff within the classes, and left feats to cover the flavorful or circumstantial stuff. The problem is that a lot of feats made you better at fighting, so you needed to take those if you were going to survive long enough to worry about the non-combat stuff.
 

I think that I don't understand enough about your system to make a coherent argument. I'm getting flashbacks to when I read FATE, and that's not fair to you.
Eh, I think its sort of like "4e meets FATE", though mechanically its pretty much all coming out of 4e-type d20 mechanics. I just found that I could add this inspiration-type mechanic which then led leveraging any character attribute as something like an 'aspect'. I'm only slowly working through the full implications of that, but its fun!

It's not just numbers going up. It's also the underlying reality which those numbers represent. The character doesn't just have +5 to Arcana checks. The character is also an expert at identifying arcane runes, and everything else that falls under the skill. It gives you the opportunity to play a character who is exceptionally good at one type of thing. It might not mean much from a mechanical standpoint, but giving anyone a specialty can work as a character hook. Even the old Ghostbusters game from West End had that going for it.
And that's why the better sorts of point-buy games don't ask you to choose between the two. When the designers of early Shadowrun noticed that players were only taking combat and magic skills at the expense of anything flavorful or circumstantial, they added in an entirely new category of skill to cover obscure knowledge and hobbies, so you don't lose your combat edge by also knowing about elven wines.
I'm leery of the whole 'underlying reality' line of discussion, since there is a strong sense in which that isn't really defined and thus you can end up boxed out of a lot of techniques that are genuinely useful. OTOH I do have a strong attachment to narrative and how mechanical character elements reinforce and support a coherent story.

I'm also leery of the idea that there are these 2 separate realms, combat, and 'everything else' (or even MM's '3 pillars'). I think if your character concept includes deceit and guile, then you probably employ that in all your endeavors, unless there's some other factor involved (maybe you're a practiced liar but also become enraged in combat, OK we can work with that, though I suspect you could still employ deceit in a combat situation fairly effectively, if you find a good reason for it). So I would RATHER see a system where every ability can be employed at any time and only the narrative logic of the situation really limits you, along with character concept.

This has led me to a design pattern where 'character building elements' are a little less granular than 4e feats, somewhere between a feat and a theme in essence, plus the inspiration thing.

The game at hand could also have gone the same route. They could have left all of the combat stuff within the classes, and left feats to cover the flavorful or circumstantial stuff. The problem is that a lot of feats made you better at fighting, so you needed to take those if you were going to survive long enough to worry about the non-combat stuff.

It is possible. I think you'd still find, like with 2e NWPs, that there are a number of almost mandatory choices. I mean, rope use for instance, and there were a couple of others like fire building and gaming. Its not a horrible problem in 2e because NWPs are frankly not good enough to get used much, but it doesn't seem like an easy path. Any feat that works in an 'action situation' at all is likely to be seen as combat-ready at the very least.
 

I'm also leery of the idea that there are these 2 separate realms, combat, and 'everything else' (or even MM's '3 pillars'). I think if your character concept includes deceit and guile, then you probably employ that in all your endeavors, unless there's some other factor involved (maybe you're a practiced liar but also become enraged in combat, OK we can work with that, though I suspect you could still employ deceit in a combat situation fairly effectively, if you find a good reason for it). So I would RATHER see a system where every ability can be employed at any time and only the narrative logic of the situation really limits you, along with character concept.
From a balance perspective, that could work. I mean, according to the informed opinion of some professionals who actually enjoy FATE, you can pretty much always apply your aspects in any situation you feel like, as long as you write them vaguely enough or are skilled as a player in persuading the GM. It works as a game (to the extent that it does) because aspects are meaningless outside of the context of the fate point economy, and rather than actually trying to model the relevant factors of causal processes (as in a traditional RPG), the mechanics are just there to make sure that the story ends up with the proper and thematic levels of dramatic tension.
 

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