D&D 4E List of Potential New Martial Practices

AbdulAlhazred said:

I think its pretty fair to say that the third thing is a boon in and of itself, though you could make an argument for a technique which let you substitute say a CON check in place of various other possibilities. This is one of those design things I'm still kind of wrestling with, whether to focus more on the technique design or relegate most of these fantastic things to boons, in which case they can be seen as having an opportunity cost (in a sort of arse-backwards way) with all that implies.

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I think you hit the nail on the head... that is what I am going with bringing the optional bards Class Feature out as a Feat and having a practice that lets you use more physicality in place of using either a herald or your personal streetwise or diplomacy. The heros shout is then fairly minor thing in some ways and absolutely not a must have.

I kind of like the random option... though, perhaps it is a side effect of going with a Herald or the Heroes shout, instead of ones own charismatics.

Garthanos said:

I think you hit the nail on the head... that is what I am going with bringing the optional bards Class Feature out as a Feat and having a practice that lets you use more physicality in place of using either a herald or your personal streetwise or diplomacy. The heros shout is then fairly minor thing in some ways and absolutely not a must have.

I kind of like the random option... though, perhaps it is a side effect of going with a Herald or the Heroes shout, instead of ones own charismatics.

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Well, maybe techniques can be fairly specific too. So you could have the general 'bard class feature' part, and then some techniques which basically reflavor it and also let you change it to different attributes/skills. That gives you a reason to have them NOT be slotted things, they don't add a whole new capability to your character, but they do make an existing one work better or differently.

AbdulAlhazred said:

Well, maybe techniques can be fairly specific too. So you could have the general 'bard class feature' part, and then some techniques which basically reflavor it and also let you change it to different attributes/skills. That gives you a reason to have them NOT be slotted things, they don't add a whole new capability to your character, but they do make an existing one work better or differently.

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OK I am still arguing with myself:

The skald is given these and it almost looks like it is instead of knowing rituals themselves...

They are effectively 3 or 4 rituals within a limited locale (which is a real limit unless your game is set primarily in a civilized domain where your polytheistic temples and lords and those who revere bards hold sway):

Ritual that summons a household and conjures meals
Ritual to summon mounts
Ritual that summons servants

And the only odd ones are a daily freebie ritual they do not even have to learn... and a flavorful but not necessarily potent route to being taken seriously when communicating with the local lords.

Remove the freebie ritual access and the effects arent really beyond them having a set of social cantrips....err 3 or 4 practices

As a group and including the free rituals I think calling them a Feat or replacement for bardic rituals works albeit perhaps slightly weaker, and it definitely makes the skald more Martial.

Garthanos said:

OK I am still arguing with myself:

The skald is given these and it almost looks like it is instead of knowing rituals themselves...

They are effectively 3 or 4 rituals within a limited locale (which is a real limit unless your game is set primarily in a civilized domain where your polytheistic temples and lords and those who revere bards hold sway):

Ritual that summons a household and conjures meals
Ritual to summon mounts
Ritual that summons servants

And the only odd ones are a daily freebie ritual they do not even have to learn... and a flavorful but not necessarily potent route to being taken seriously when communicating with the local lords.

Remove the freebie ritual access and the effects arent really beyond them having a set of social cantrips....err 3 or 4 practices

As a group and including the free rituals I think calling them a Feat or replacement for bardic rituals works albeit perhaps slightly weaker, and it definitely makes the skald more Martial.

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Remember the context of this class, it is a post-E class, which means it was probably designed to work in a game where rituals are non-existent. These sorts of abilities might well be allocated to a theme or considered rituals/practices, but here they serve to give the character a type of ability that mostly is just left out of the Essentials rules.

Also, I think from a narrative standpoint, these aren't really WEAK capabilities. They give the character a good deal of instant clout and credibility. Anywhere he goes he has a household, an entourage, and transportation. These aren't powerful adventuring capabilities perhaps (though having good mounts could be, and consider using this kind of thing in, say, the Underdark). Still, particularly at lower levels, this is a great way to make a big splash when entering a new town or something. Most characters are just unknown, this guy turns heads!

AbdulAlhazred said:

Remember the context of this class, it is a post-E class, which means it was probably designed to work in a game where rituals are non-existent. These sorts of abilities might well be allocated to a theme or considered rituals/practices, but here they serve to give the character a type of ability that mostly is just left out of the Essentials rules.

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Well almost these were definitely Post-Essentials and in HotFW and they even bring in rituals with the Ritual Benefactor element, they are assuming it is part of the world, perhaps they are just saying it isn't really specifically a Bards shtick. It is true they ignore martial practices which is par for the course of everything in 4e beyond the one bit in MP2. They present some very nice themes in HotFW as well. So a Priest and Prince theme which included them could have been very dujour... I think it was just a failure as much as I like HotFW.

AbdulAlhazred said:

Also, I think from a narrative standpoint, these aren't really WEAK capabilities. They give the character a good deal of instant clout and credibility. Anywhere he goes he has a household, an entourage, and transportation. These aren't powerful adventuring capabilities perhaps (though having good mounts could be, and consider using this kind of thing in, say, the Underdark). Still, particularly at lower levels, this is a great way to make a big splash when entering a new town or something. Most characters are just unknown, this guy turns heads!

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Agreed with the analysis, they have narrative splash that befits Poets, Priests and Politicians err Princes(s) completely appropriate for fairy tales, legends and mythology and also a world where some heroes are able to walk through feywild to teleport every 5 minutes or so , and others are half demons and others are reincarnating immortals with memories perhaps from a millennia ago from level 1.

Garthanos said:

Well almost these were definitely Post-Essentials and in HotFW and they even bring in rituals with the Ritual Benefactor element, they are assuming it is part of the world, perhaps they are just saying it isn't really specifically a Bards shtick. It is true they ignore martial practices which is par for the course of everything in 4e beyond the one bit in MP2. They present some very nice themes in HotFW as well. So a Priest and Prince theme which included them could have been very dujour... I think it was just a failure as much as I like HotFW.

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Right, I'm just saying that they MAY have created it as a class feature thinking that invoking the ritual rules might deter people from playing the class who only have the RC, which you may remember DOES NOT HAVE any ritual rules in it! In fact it has some fairly obscure rules from other parts of the system, but rituals and practices are pretty close to the only thing that is left out in a purely mechanical sense. Yes, other parts of HotFW DO invoke the ritual rules, and there are things like themes (character elements in general) where RC is just silent that do appear in post-E books. These books are WEIRD, they don't entirely work for anyone that doesn't use both HotF(L/K) AND PHB1/DMG1, but I think there are parts where they just said "why add this element that only works for one rules set when we can make it work with both?" Other things they seem to have decided would cater to one or the other necessarily (IE you can't really make options for an E-class build that works for PHB1 players).

I mean, rituals aren't literally non-existent in Essentials, they are simply left out, just like the RC basically leaves out all specific options for PCs, there are no EDs or PPs or even really any mention of them except one sentence on p86, but they do EXIST in Essentials. Presumably rituals EXIST as well, in that they could hypothetically be part of the game if you have a source of rules for them, like PHB1. It is just interesting that they are missing from the Skald, which by that omission falls within the parameters of what Essentials explicitly includes.

AbdulAlhazred said:

Right, I'm just saying that they MAY have created it as a class feature thinking that invoking the ritual rules might deter people from playing the class who only have the RC, which you may remember DOES NOT HAVE any ritual rules in it!.

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They certainly built that Skald class feature in a way that could function without rituals... but in a manner that using rituals added flexibility rather clever give the context of people potentially playing without rituals.

Garthanos said:

They certainly built that Skald class feature in a way that could function without rituals... but in a manner that using rituals added flexibility rather clever give the context of people potentially playing without rituals.

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Yeah, and Skalds are still bards, so they still get to master bardic rituals. Its all cool.

Garthanos said:

That could work of its own accord.... it's the appearance angle which isn't covered by either mimicry or the method acting.

Did I mention I was thinking practices might serve like fighter/ranger/warlord/rogue cantrips?

An idea that came up during the feign death discussion could be made more in your face by making a hypnosis practice.
Hypnosis allows a set of practices that are normally (self only) unless medically induced (some with a gp cost) to use diplomacy skill - this could affect method acting and psychiatric treatment (which does delay mental afflictions )

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Given the myths about what acupuncture can treat...

"Allergies, Asthma, Sinusitis, Headaches, TMJ, Back Pain, Sciatica, Musculoskeletal Problems, Insomnia, Anxiety, Dizziness, Depression, High Blood Pressure, Chronic Fatigue, Fibromyalgia, Addictions, Indigestion, Constipation, Sexual Dysfunction, Post-Operative Recovery, Palliative Care."

I am vaguely inclined to have a Practice for it that allows one to make healing practices based on Thieving skill.

Garthanos said:

Given the myths about what acupuncture can treat...

"Allergies, Asthma, Sinusitis, Headaches, TMJ, Back Pain, Sciatica, Musculoskeletal Problems, Insomnia, Anxiety, Dizziness, Depression, High Blood Pressure, Chronic Fatigue, Fibromyalgia, Addictions, Indigestion, Constipation, Sexual Dysfunction, Post-Operative Recovery, Palliative Care."

I am vaguely inclined to have a Practice for it that allows one to make healing practices based on Thieving skill.

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That sounds pretty cool and totally reasonable! It could be used to remove prolonged conditions (should such exist), diseases, etc.