Players reading DM-only material

SableWyvern · Mar 3, 2002

Minor Rant

Perfect timing!

I awoke this morning (actually, this afternoon) and pretty much first thing my house-mate says, "I read up on Ninja of the Crescent Moon, that's ok isn't it."

Knowing full well that it wasn't.

IMC, players know the concept behind the PrCs they're heading for, and most of the pre-reqs, but the rest only comes out in play. This campaign (my first 3e) is probably going to be the only time I can do this effectively - later on, everyone will just know what the PrCs are and their exact capabilities.

Suffice to say, I was not impressed.

But, this is an exception to the norm, and my players simply don't read stuff I let them know that they shouldn't.

sotmh · Mar 3, 2002

I always give my players the same warning:

"Published materials that I use to aid the campaign are subject to change without notice in whole or in part. I encourage you to avoid reading those sections that are clearly marked for the GM as it may lessen your enjoyment of the game."

Of course, I've had players ignore this warning and read GM material anyway. I used to get angry, but now I just continue on as if they hadn't read anything. I see no reason to change my plans simply because somebody wants to read the last page of the book first (so to speak). It's just too much bother and work and stress to worry about what my players read, so if they do it's just too bad for them when they're not surprised by the twist ending.

Now if they let that knowledge affect their in-game play, then I get nasty and change stuff. Since I mostly improvise, this is quite easy and I feel perfectly justified in changing the nature of the world and NPCs on the fly if I feel this is happening. So far, my players have been good, but I know who among them reads the little secrets, so I know who I have to keep an eye on.

sotmh

Tsyr · Mar 3, 2002

How do you handle playerDMs? I'm one, I have a couple in one my game too. People who both DM and play. If a DM tried to tell me "You can't read through the MM (I've known DMs who "forbid" their players to read the MM... outside games, that is, I can understand during a game...), I would have to leave... I have to be able to read that type of stuff. Likewise, I read modules and dungeon magazines looking for ideas. Because I am a DM I'm never supposed to get to play again?

If a DM said to me, "Hey, Dave, I'm running the adventure on page #97 of January's "Dungeon", could you not read it for a while?" I'd probably agree if I hadn't already, out of decency... but what am I supposed to do if I've already read it? Stop gaming untill the group finishes that session?

hong · Mar 3, 2002

Re: Minor Rant

SableWyvern said:
Perfect timing!

I awoke this morning (actually, this afternoon) and pretty much first thing my house-mate says, "I read up on Ninja of the Crescent Moon, that's ok isn't it."

Knowing full well that it wasn't.

??? There's nothing about the various class splatbooks that I'd consider to be DM-only material.

Berandor · Mar 3, 2002

Well, I don't use published adventeures most of the time I'm playing...

My players aren't allowed to read other than the PH during game, plus relevant information on their characters (if they've got a spell from Tome&Blood, they can read up on it).

However, when I notice that DM knowledge is used like "the troll can't regenerate fire and acid", when they've never encountered a troll, then I change my minions... the troll suddenly can't regenrate cold and electricity, but fire and acid is no problem.
It's a "Storm Troll".

Bad Luck.

Berandor

Tsyr · Mar 3, 2002

Grrr. The "troll example". I've always hated it.

Does no fantasy world have "common knowledge"? I mean, heck... Vampires aren't real, nor are werewolves, or several other supernatural things... but tons of people still "know how to kill them". Stories get around, legends of "Arkdash the Troll Slayer and his Flaming Sword", stuff like that.

rounser · Mar 3, 2002

I agree Tsyr. In places like the Forgotten Realms, where they have places named after trollslayers (like Daggerford), are commoners really not going to remember an important little detail like "to kill a troll, you have to burn them or they'll get back up again"? Are they really going to be surprised when a wizard starts hurling magic missiles and fireballs, two of the most common combat spells for hundreds of years? Or when they realise that orcs can see in the dark?

Nope. They probably won't know much about the rarer-than-common spells or monsters or obscure abilities though - the line on their knowledge should indeed be drawn somewhere, but not there. It's actually unrealistic to do so, IMO. Characters in the average D&D world live in a world overflowing with monsters and magic, give them some credit for that.

Axiomatic Unicorn · Mar 3, 2002

Darkness said:
Heh. A pity that this isn't a multiple-choice poll.

All of the following applies to me:

I encourage them not to read the materials and trust that they won't.

I make enough changes to published materials that they'll just screw themselves if they do read them.

Not in my campaign! *boot*

It's the first of these three, though.

I agree with this as well, with a heavy dash of "I don't care thrown it."

SableWyvern · Mar 3, 2002

Re: Re: Minor Rant

hong said:
??? There's nothing about the various class splatbooks that I'd consider to be DM-only material.

Unless the DM specifically designates it so, which is what I have done.

I wanted PrCs in this campaign to be character concepts that the players strive for, rather than mechanics-bonuses.

By gaining a thorough knowledge of the players' desires, and diseminating a minimum of information, I have been able to work with the players to determine PrCs that fit into their character concept, without having mechanics become an issue.

Frex, once player has a demon hating ranger who is heading for Knight of the Chalice. The player knew that they were a demon-hunting PrC with a few spells, as well as the PrC's feat, bab and skill requirements. Last session, he met a KotC, and his character learnt of the organisations existence. He was informed that he would need to improve his swordsmanship, personally vanquish a demon, quest for enchanted plate and learn to chanel positive energy before he would be accepted into the order. When he meets the pre-reqs and becomes a KotC, their special abilities will be revealed to him, etc, etc.

The player who decided to read up on the Ninja, knowing that that was not allowed, has spoiled some of the mystique that I have been able to provide PrCs in this particular campaign. He himself admitted that his mischief had spoiled the surprise.

arwink · Mar 3, 2002

I'm somewhere between option b and option c, but probably a tad closer to b. I used to be really intense about what my players could and couldn't read, but at the time I was the only DM and most of the players made no effort to get any game stuff unless it was to gain some kind of advantage. Over the past few years I've just ceased caring, largely due to a new group of players, another DM to alternate sessions with and a number of players taking responsibility for learning the rules onto themselves, rather than relying on me to teach them. The only thing I'm even remotely worried about anymore is adventures, and given that the other DM runes planescape and my games take place in my messed up little world, there's really very little overlap there. I think one dungeon mag in about three years, something like that.

There's a lot of stuff out there. It's easy to avoid stepping on your co-DM's toes these days.