Busting Rocks - Stone Age Science Fiction/Fantasy RPG
If you agree with me that religion is an important and influential institution, then why is it no one could be bothered to write it down till well after accounting records and even law?
Makes no sense.
If you have references for any myths used in ritual, i.e. not just stories, that predate law, then by all means send them my way. That would be a stunning finding in light of the theoretical underpinnings of religion being law itself.
Makes no sense.
If you have references for any myths used in ritual, i.e. not just stories, that predate law, then by all means send them my way. That would be a stunning finding in light of the theoretical underpinnings of religion being law itself.
They may not have had writing or formalized religion as we know it, but judging from burial rituals, cave paintings, and certain artifacts, most paleohumanoid tribes probably did have some kind of animist/totemic/shamanistic views.
Remember that many ancient stories we can read today also preceded the era of literate society, and were passed down hundreds of years via storytelling. That oral tradition is part of why certain sections of the Old Testament have structural similarities to works like The Iliad.
Remember that many ancient stories we can read today also preceded the era of literate society, and were passed down hundreds of years via storytelling. That oral tradition is part of why certain sections of the Old Testament have structural similarities to works like The Iliad.
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"As for writing religion down. Why?"
The writing of religion down is not what is the most important. The fact that religion emerged from law -- and not vice versa -- is the critical issue to take home.
By the way, something else emerged from law: morality. This is not conscience, but a codified way of behaving toward others. Please, note the difference. A young child can have a conscience but can not understand, let alone have, morality.
The writing of religion down is not what is the most important. The fact that religion emerged from law -- and not vice versa -- is the critical issue to take home.
By the way, something else emerged from law: morality. This is not conscience, but a codified way of behaving toward others. Please, note the difference. A young child can have a conscience but can not understand, let alone have, morality.
Arilyn
Hero
Writing probably first appeared as a way to keep track of resources, and maybe what was owed to others. There is a theory that a form of proto writing existed as far back as the ice age in the form of the symbols found with cave paintings, although this is controversial. It makes sense to me, because ideas and new ways of doing things don't usually pop out of nowhere. Neolithic people didn't develop full fledged writing because they didn't have a use for it.
Since writing was first used in a rather practical worldly fashion, I wouldn't expect religious ideas to be written down. Little confused as to why you do not consider customs and beliefs as religion? There is ample evidence of belief in a spirit realm through the art they have left behind, and of course burial goods in grave sites makes it pretty clear they also believed in an afterlife.
Having a conscience is part of morality. Now, if we were transported back to the Neolithic, we might not feel comfortable with our ancestors morality, but that doesn't't mean they had no concept of it.
1. "Writing probably first appeared as a way to keep track of resources, and maybe what was owed to others."
Agreed.
2. "because ideas and new ways of doing things don't usually pop out of nowhere"
Happens all the time. For a modern example, just look at various technologies.
3. "Little confused as to why you do not consider customs and beliefs as religion?"
I have focussed on writing but the real emphasis belongs on law. No law, which binds physically, then no religion, which binds in other ways. Of course, you can still have deeply held beliefs and persistent rituals, but they do not bind like religion does.
4. "There is ample evidence of belief in a spirit realm through the art they have left behind, and of course burial goods in grave sites makes it pretty clear they also believed in an afterlife."
Agreed, but see #3.
5. "Having a conscience is part of morality."
You can program a computer to make moral decisions, yet those choices do not show conscience.
Young children can have consciences, yet they can't have morality. Thus, the law holds them to a different standards over crimes that would merit grim punishment for an adult.
6. "we might not feel comfortable with our ancestors morality, but that doesn't't mean they had no concept of it."
You presume the existence of a sophisticated, organized form of thinking called morality. Morality bears at least as much resemblance to law as it does to conscience. In light of this resemblance and in the absence of law, morality can not possible emerge.
I wish to emphasize that conscience has attributes that can appear to us as morality, but the two are not the same. A society with people of conscience can exist -- even thrive -- without morality.
Agreed.
2. "because ideas and new ways of doing things don't usually pop out of nowhere"
Happens all the time. For a modern example, just look at various technologies.
3. "Little confused as to why you do not consider customs and beliefs as religion?"
I have focussed on writing but the real emphasis belongs on law. No law, which binds physically, then no religion, which binds in other ways. Of course, you can still have deeply held beliefs and persistent rituals, but they do not bind like religion does.
4. "There is ample evidence of belief in a spirit realm through the art they have left behind, and of course burial goods in grave sites makes it pretty clear they also believed in an afterlife."
Agreed, but see #3.
5. "Having a conscience is part of morality."
You can program a computer to make moral decisions, yet those choices do not show conscience.
Young children can have consciences, yet they can't have morality. Thus, the law holds them to a different standards over crimes that would merit grim punishment for an adult.
6. "we might not feel comfortable with our ancestors morality, but that doesn't't mean they had no concept of it."
You presume the existence of a sophisticated, organized form of thinking called morality. Morality bears at least as much resemblance to law as it does to conscience. In light of this resemblance and in the absence of law, morality can not possible emerge.
I wish to emphasize that conscience has attributes that can appear to us as morality, but the two are not the same. A society with people of conscience can exist -- even thrive -- without morality.
Arilyn
Hero
I am afraid I still don't follow your logic. What about pre-contact aboriginal cultures. No writing, but extremely rich cultures with laws, morality, religion, and very sophisticated ways of understanding and mapping the environment.
I think you need to have morality in place before you can establish laws. Laws exist to codify a culture's belief system. And yes, even Neolithic cultures would have laws in place to deal with theft, murder, distribution of food etc. How could laws possibly come first, and why do you need writing to have these institutions? Don't sell oral traditions short.
Nothing pops up without groundwork. Trace music boxes forward, and you arrive at computer punch cards. The beauty of writing is we have a fantastic way of saving knowledge for future generations. This is why our tech has been able to make huge leaps, but this doesn't mean illiterate cultures are made up of people with barren minds. Oral tradition, symbolic art, stories, dance and music can also preserve knowledge and tradition.
I think you need to have morality in place before you can establish laws. Laws exist to codify a culture's belief system. And yes, even Neolithic cultures would have laws in place to deal with theft, murder, distribution of food etc. How could laws possibly come first, and why do you need writing to have these institutions? Don't sell oral traditions short.
Nothing pops up without groundwork. Trace music boxes forward, and you arrive at computer punch cards. The beauty of writing is we have a fantastic way of saving knowledge for future generations. This is why our tech has been able to make huge leaps, but this doesn't mean illiterate cultures are made up of people with barren minds. Oral tradition, symbolic art, stories, dance and music can also preserve knowledge and tradition.
Please, see my clarifications thread that I made early this morning.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...ge-Science-Fiction-Fantasy-RPG-clarifications
I'd like to move on from this thread. Please, ask me under that new thread about anything I did not sufficiently address. That way, with your help, I can try to make further progress in resolving the issues under discussion. If need be (and with your helpful questions) I will make another, formal attempt to clear up my points.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...ge-Science-Fiction-Fantasy-RPG-clarifications
I'd like to move on from this thread. Please, ask me under that new thread about anything I did not sufficiently address. That way, with your help, I can try to make further progress in resolving the issues under discussion. If need be (and with your helpful questions) I will make another, formal attempt to clear up my points.
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