Can Hobby Stores Make Their Saving Throw?

LordEntrails · Jul 24, 2017

pickin_grinnin said:
I would call it a lack of customer service because they failed to bring the products to their customer base. ...

Most gamers are not going to pay more for a "premium experience," unless we're talking about something really cool. That stuff costs money, and you have to charge more to make up the difference. It's not worth the cost of losing frugal (not "cheap") customers. Every store should focus on providing good customer service - that's not something that should be considered "premium."

Interesting, you start by saying you want customer service. Then you say you won't pay for customer service...

For those of us who are old enough, we remember going to a store in the 80's and expecting good customer service. It was normal, it was expected, and it was important to a successful business.

Then, economic downturn, emergence of discount stores and warehouses. Expand that with internet shopping, mega retailers willing to sell products at a loss or a 2% profit margin. Now we have a large group of customer who expect and demand lowest prices. And now some of them actually want customer service too.

Customer service costs money. It costs people to be in a physical location for x number of hours. To answer your email and your phone calls. To talk to you when you walk in the door. It costs money to have product sitting on a shelf waiting for you to look at it and maybe buy it.

Brick & Mortar stores, your FLGS costs money to have. Overhead is higher than it is for Amazon. Overhead is higher than not only Amazon's costs, but also more than their overhead and profit margin. (You do know Amazon has said they are willing to loose years worth of profits just to establish a monopoly don't you? You know what happens when a monopoly exists don't you?)

So, if you want no customer service, if you want your products at the lowest cost and that's all you care about. Then buy your hobby products for the lowest price. But then please don't complain about lousy customer service, about having to pay some membership or table fee to play at a FLGS or game club. Or whine when there are no game stores near you.

Don't complain when some adventure module you buy has crappy editing, or is poorly converted from one system to another. When some adventure module is poorly conceived, when the artwork is uninspiring, when your favorite publisher releases half or less of the splat books you want.

When you are only willing to pay the lowest price for a product, then that item becomes a commodity. In the worst sense of the word. Quality,originality, and support become worthless, because by buying it as cheap as you can, you have spoken with your dollars and have said those things are unimportant.

Commodity products do not attract the best and brightest to the industry. Your favorite authors will go elsewhere. The brightest up and coming talent will go into some other field.

Have you ever wanted to invent a nut or bolt? Sell milk or salt? Those are commodities. Their is little creativity, originality or quality (other than that mandated by regulations) in those products because they are commodities.

I hope RPG's never become a commodity. Therefore I will pay for customer service. For a clean well stocked store with friendly and knowledgeable staff. For a place I can go to for social and community aspects.

pickin_grinnin · Jul 24, 2017

LordEntrails said:
Interesting, you start by saying you want customer service. Then you say you won't pay for customer service...

Every business should have good customer service, whether they are brick-and-mortar or online.

What I'm saying is that local game stores have the opportunity to provide a free service to their customers via Free RPG Day that helps them stand out from online sellers. It's something they can do that differentiates them.

For those of us who are old enough, we remember going to a store in the 80's and expecting good customer service. It was normal, it was expected, and it was important to a successful business.

I'm 50 years old. I have been playing rpgs and going to local comic and games stores since the late 70s. Game and comic stores were notorious for having bad service even back then, unfortunately.

Now we have a large group of customer who expect and demand lowest prices. And now some of them actually want customer service too.

That's nothing new. Prices rise and fall all the time, and sometimes new business models come along that really change the equation. It has been that way throughout history. Customers still want good service.

Customer service costs money. It costs people to be in a physical location for x number of hours. To answer your email and your phone calls. To talk to you when you walk in the door. It costs money to have product sitting on a shelf waiting for you to look at it and maybe buy it.

Yes, of course it does. That's the nature of brick and mortar retail, and always has been.

Brick & Mortar stores, your FLGS costs money to have. Overhead is higher than it is for Amazon. Overhead is higher than not only Amazon's costs, but also more than their overhead and profit margin.

Yep, that's the modern day conundrum. The business models are changing, and continue to do so.

There are a lot of reasons that Amazon can charge less for things. That's not the point, though.

(You do know Amazon has said they are willing to loose years worth of profits just to establish a monopoly don't you? You know what happens when a monopoly exists don't you?)

I remember when Bezos first started Amazon, working out of a tiny office and mostly drop-shipping to his customers. I started doing corporate Internet development somewhere around 1992, right from the very beginning. I was doing GOPHER pages (then HTML ones) for a bookstore chain at the time. They ended up falling behind Amazon due to some really bad business decisions on their part and never recovered. I have watched - and developed applications and websites for - ecommerce since it was possible to do such, starting with the book market.

These days I live within a 30 minute drive of several Amazon warehouses, and have a lot of friends who work for them, in various capacities. I have worked in both new and used bookstores at various points, as well. Amazon as a whole is problematic in a lot of ways, and it's a wonder that those warehouses work at all, but that's not really pertinent here. If there's one thing I understand intimately, it's the processes, tradeoffs, and realities of ecommerce and the difficulties brick and mortar stores have competing.

So, if you want no customer service, if you want your products at the lowest cost and that's all you care about. Then buy your hobby products for the lowest price.

Of course I want my products at the lowest price. Most rpg hobbyists also do. Most people in general do. I still expect good customer service, though, which Amazon and the other online vendors I use generally provide.

But then please don't complain about lousy customer service, about having to pay some membership or table fee to play at a FLGS or game club. Or whine when there are no game stores near you.

I would not complain about paying to play in someone else's space, if that was something I did (I don't). I definitely don't whine when I'm in places where there aren't game stores. I'm surprised that so many have survived at all.

Don't complain when some adventure module you buy has crappy editing, or is poorly converted from one system to another. When some adventure module is poorly conceived, when the artwork is uninspiring, when your favorite publisher releases half or less of the splat books you want.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

When you are only willing to pay the lowest price for a product, then that item becomes a commodity. In the worst sense of the word. Quality,originality, and support become worthless, because by buying it as cheap as you can, you have spoken with your dollars and have said those things are unimportant.

Again, the quality of the product and what I pay for it are different things. There is the real price to produce and print the book. Above that is the wholesale price, where the people who made the book get their profit. If I pay wholesale price or more, the people who make the books get their profit. The difference between what Amazon sells a book for and the wholesale price is Amazon's profit. The profit a game store makes is the difference between wholesale and whatever they sell the book for in their store. MSRP - manufacturer's SUGGESTED retail price - is generally the max they can set the price in the store and still be able to sell the item. Bookstores and comic shops were pricing certain things below MSRP long before the World Wide Web came along.

The actual percent difference between wholesale prices and MSRP varies from publisher to publisher. It's a very narrow margin on some books (ex. university publications) and a larger one on mass market stuff. In the end, though, game stores determine their own profit on each book they sell by deciding whether they'll take the full difference between wholesale and MSRP or something less than that. They have to balance the price by how many copies they are likely to sell and how long the book will take up shelf space before being sold. It can be a delicate balancing act.

Commodity products do not attract the best and brightest to the industry. Your favorite authors will go elsewhere. The brightest up and coming talent will go into some other field.

Have you ever wanted to invent a nut or bolt? Sell milk or salt? Those are commodities. Their is little creativity, originality or quality (other than that mandated by regulations) in those products because they are commodities.

I hope RPG's never become a commodity. Therefore I will pay for customer service. For a clean well stocked store with friendly and knowledgeable staff. For a place I can go to for social and community aspects.

You're mixing two completely different things.

The ability to attract industry talent (game designers, writers, artists, etc.) and the ability of a local game store to stay open are two entirely different things. The state of game stores does not heavily influence industry talent, or quality of the products these days. In fact, most games never even make it to the shelves of game stores. They get sold online.

The customer service that a game company provides it's customers (getting product out on time, keeping promises about future publications, etc.) is an entirely different type of customer service than we're talking about with vendors. The type of customer service you expect from online vendors is even slightly different (though similar) to what you should expect from brick and mortar stores. Online vendors have to provide inexpensive, quick shipping, for example. Brick and mortar ones have to provide open hours, services at the register, etc. They all need to be friendly, honest, and easy to work with.

The fate of rpgs, their ongoing development, the quality of the products, their prices, and the talent they attract is in no way tied to the continued existence of local game stores. It was at one time, but most rpg book purchases are done online these days. You can get D&D and Pathfinder in Barnes and Noble and regular game stores, but even those are sold more often online.

The big point here - which ties back into my comment about Free RPG Day - is that people who want to be able to continue to run local game stores have to find ways to offer things that online sellers can't. If they can't do that, more and more of them will go under. It isn't wise for anyone to open a new game store these days. They're slowly dying out, as have other types of business throughout history. They don't need to be "saved" - they need to sink or swim. Free RPG Day is something they can offer than the online vendors don't. So is offering table space, for free or for rent. Food and drinks, tournaments, etc. are also things that online vendors can't offer. Some have come up with some really unique value-added services. If they don't do at least some of those things, they are just hastening their demise.

Though I feel sorry for struggling businesses, there is no guarantee that any particular one will sink or swim. That's almost entirely up to the decisions the game store owners make. When markets change, businesses have to change with them. Those that can't - or won't - end up closing. That's how commerce works, and how it has always worked.

LordEntrails · Jul 24, 2017

pickin_grinnin said:
Every business should have good customer service, whether they are brick-and-mortar or online.

In my opinion they should as well. Perhaps my comments should not have been directed in a reply to you, but rather to the community as a whole. (This thread, obviously, got me going and much of what I said was not directed at you.)

Be aware, many business have made a specific choice NOT to provide customer service because of the costs involved in doing so. Specific examples are free online services where the only support is through user/volunteer communities. And many others that require you to pay extra for customer service.

What I'm saying is that local game stores have the opportunity to provide a free service to their customers via Free RPG Day that helps them stand out from online sellers. It's something they can do that differentiates them.

It's not free to the stores to provide this "free service" to their customers. Other threads several game store owners have commented that the cost to support Free RPG day is, in their opinions, too costly.

That's nothing new. Prices rise and fall all the time, and sometimes new business models come along that really change the equation. It has been that way throughout history. Customers still want good service.

But are they willing to pay for it? IME, many are not. Wanting and being willing to actually pay for something are very different. I might want a Lamborghini, but I'm not willing to pay for one.

Yep, that's the modern day conundrum. The business models are changing, and continue to do so.
...
Of course I want my products at the lowest price. Most rpg hobbyists also do. Most people in general do. I still expect good customer service, though, which Amazon and the other online vendors I use generally provide.

My point is, what product are you willing to buy? A printed book? Or a printed book from a FLGS who can also make recommendations and allow you to take the item with you as soon as the transaction is completed?

Those are two very different products. Part of the point I was trying to make (to those reading the thread) is that buying one is not synonymous with the other.

Again, the quality of the product and what I pay for it are different things. .... It can be a delicate balancing act.

I agree that they are different things, but they are directly related to one another. In general, the more you pay for a product, the higher the quality expectation can reasonable be.

You're mixing two completely different things.

Yep, I'm trying to show the relationship between them.

The ability to attract industry talent (game designers, writers, artists, etc.) and the ability of a local game store to stay open are two entirely different things. The state of game stores does not heavily influence industry talent, or quality of the products these days. In fact, most games never even make it to the shelves of game stores. They get sold online.

But the ability to attract talent and what the customers are willing to pay for those products are directly related. That was my point, not the survival of FLGSs.

The customer service that a game company provides it's customers (getting product out on time, keeping promises about future publications, etc.) is an entirely different type of customer service than we're talking about with vendors.

Except they both are costs to the business. And when a product becomes a commodity, all costs are squeezed to the minimum or eliminated.

The type of customer service you expect from online vendors is even slightly different (though similar) to what you should expect from brick and mortar stores. Online vendors have to provide inexpensive, quick shipping, for example. Brick and mortar ones have to provide open hours, services at the register, etc. They all need to be friendly, honest, and easy to work with.

Again, my point is if these services are of value to someone, then they have to be willing to pay those costs.

The fate of rpgs, their ongoing development, the quality of the products, their prices, and the talent they attract is in no way tied to the continued existence of local game stores. It was at one time, but most rpg book purchases are done online these days. You can get D&D and Pathfinder in Barnes and Noble and regular game stores, but even those are sold more often online.

I would say the link is much much weaker than it used to be. But to say there is no link is, imo, an exaggeration not worthy of careful thought. (i.e. .001% i still a link).

The big point here - which ties back into my comment about Free RPG Day - is that people who want to be able to continue to run local game stores have to find ways to offer things that online sellers can't. .... Some have come up with some really unique value-added services. If they don't do at least some of those things, they are just hastening their demise.

... When markets change, businesses have to change with them. Those that can't - or won't - end up closing. That's how commerce works, and how it has always worked.

Absolutely. Adapt or die. And I think that's why the "Saving Throw" reference in the thread title. I certainly never meant to imply that stores should stay stagnant and we gamers should "save them". Are these stores going to adapt and survive?

My big point is that gamers should understand the impacts of their own decisions, especially when it comes to how it will impact the future of their hobby. We invest hundred, thousand, tens of thousands of hours into our hobby. We should also be just as careful with how we invest our tens, hundred, or thousands of dollars.

If we chose to steal (pirate), buy the lowest cost version of a product, or buy everything a company products at MSRP, that is a choice we are entitled to make. Hopefully each time that decision is made it is done so with consideration of the impacts and a moral foundation.

MNblockhead · Jul 24, 2017

pickin_grinnin said:
Most gamers are not going to pay more for a "premium experience," unless we're talking about something really cool. That stuff costs money, and you have to charge more to make up the difference. It's not worth the cost of losing frugal (not "cheap") customers. Every store should focus on providing good customer service - that's not something that should be considered "premium."

A retailer can go cheap and try to be profitable through volume or they can stop worrying about "most" customers and focus on on the portion who are willing to pay more.

FLGS are not going to succeed by competing on price, convenience, or freebies.

I just bought a "brick" of Wizkids Icons of the Realms pre-painted minis for less than any local game store that will be delivered to my doorstep, same-day, with no shipping costs. Yes, I "pay" shipping because I pay for Amazon Prime membership, but the cost of Prime has paid for itself many times over, esp. since I also cut cable for an Amazon Fire TV box. If I am patient and can wait for four days, Amazon will give me credit for digital purchases (free Kindle books, fee movies) or Amazon marketplace. I also get points on my Amazon Visa card. I get more freebies buying from Amazon than I would from any free RPG day and, on Amazon, I get to PICK what my freebies will be.

I've been to Free Comic book days, deep discount sales, etc. Rarely are they worth my time and the heavy crowds make the experience unpleasant. They may attract a lot of people for that day. They may make the store money for that day. But I don't see how they help the store make money the rest of the year. If the stores in your area feel it would make them lots of money, they'd probably be doing it.

I spend about $100 to $150 a month at my local game store. About half of that is on food and drink and the other half is on game expansions, card sleeves, etc. that I buy because I'm already there and playing with family or friends. And the place is PACKED every weekend. I don't know about week nights, since I never go on week nights, but I do know that they've just expanded their hours, so they must not be doing too badly.

Occasionally they have sales to move slow stock, but I doubt that anyone there is there because of cost.

They are there because it is a great place to game. To bring your family. To meet with friends. As a venue for Meetup.com meetups. As a venue for tournaments and mini-cons.

You can game and get good food. Beer on tap. The space and furniture is spacious, clean, and pleasant. The staff are friendly, helpful, and attentive. They staff gamers themselves, but also provide good customer service.

For a few extra perks, I would happily pay for an annual membership at a place like this.

After experiencing a FLGS that is doing very well, AND is a place I WANT to go and hang out at, has removed my sympathy for—and any guilt for not supporting—lesser stores. I no longer experience an iota of guilt ordering games and gaming books from Amazon. I'm not hurting the good stores by doing this. I still spend FAR more money at my game store than on Amazon, its just not being spend on TTRPG books and miniatures. Most of my board-game spend is now spent at Kickstarter. I don't feel bad about this—I'm supporting the creators directly.

FLGS HAVE to reinvent themselves. They can't just be a retail store. They need to be resaurants, bars, event planners and event-space renters, and more.

pickin_grinnin · Jul 24, 2017

LordEntrails said:
It's not free to the stores to provide this "free service" to their customers. Other threads several game store owners have commented that the cost to support Free RPG day is, in their opinions, too costly.

Yep, I know that's why many don't do it. My point is that when they opt out of things like that, they give me even less reason to visit their stores and buy their other products. I'm sure that's true for a lot of people, based on various comments I have heard on various forums.

My point is, what product are you willing to buy? A printed book? Or a printed book from a FLGS who can also make recommendations and allow you to take the item with you as soon as the transaction is completed?

With Amazon Prime, I can get most things in two days. That fills my need to get a product quickly. I know that other people like to walk out with something the same day and are willing to pay for that, but (given game store sales figures) most don't.

My interest is in the printed book. Since the World Wide Web portion of the Internet became popular, I haven't needed anyone to recommend things to me in real life. Even on those few occasions when I welcome it, I haven't found most game store employees to be particularly knowledgeable about rpgs as a whole, outside of Pathfinder and D&D. Even if they are, they can't sell me the other stuff because they don't carry it.

But the ability to attract talent and what the customers are willing to pay for those products are directly related. That was my point, not the survival of FLGSs.

The thread is about the survival of game stores, though. That other stuff isn't directly relevant to it (though it does make for an interesting discussion).

Again, my point is if these services are of value to someone, then they have to be willing to pay those costs.

I agree. The sales figures from game stores (and the number of closings) would indicate that the services that many of them offer are not of enough value to enough people. That's the reality game store owners have to work with.

My big point is that gamers should understand the impacts of their own decisions, especially when it comes to how it will impact the future of their hobby. We invest hundred, thousand, tens of thousands of hours into our hobby. We should also be just as careful with how we invest our tens, hundred, or thousands of dollars.

I agree completely. I just don't think that the continued survival of game stores comes into that equation.