D&D 5E Building a better Rogue

Guest 6801328 · Jul 29, 2017

A few changes I would like to make:
1) Make ranged roguery less desirable. Or make it a specific sub-class. Rogues should be stabby.
2) Create a reason to make daggers preferable (at least in some way) to short swords. (Oh, and delete rapiers from the game. Thanks.) Greyhawk Initiative with the optional "roll your weapon's damage die" rule would do this, for example.
3) Make the effectiveness of stealth less dependent upon DM interpretation. The biggest buzz kill for rogue pleasure is a DM who simply doesn't like what he (or she) views as "unrealistic" stealth, and therefore basically never lets you sneak around. Magical fireballs? Sure. Martial healing? Sure. Sneaking up behind somebody locked in desperate combat with your ally? Never.

Gladius Legis · Jul 29, 2017

Not much to change about the Rogue, it's one of the most well designed classes in 5e all around.

The one thing I would definitely change, however, is allowing Sneak Attack with all light weapons (in addition to finesse and ranged). That would allow Sneak Attacks with clubs, light hammers and handaxes. Going up behind someone and zonking them in the head with a club unawares, in particular, is a very iconic Sneak Attack. And it'd allow for STR-based thuggish Rogues right out of the box, which wouldn't be any more effective mechanics-wise than existing Rogue builds, anyway, but at least it'd actually give us a working mechanical expression of that common Rogue concept.

Gladius Legis · Jul 29, 2017

Elfcrusher said:
A few changes I would like to make:
1) Make ranged roguery less desirable. Or make it a specific sub-class. Rogues should be stabby.

I'd say this is more a problem with ranged combat in general being too desirable in 5e compared to melee, rather than with the Rogue itself.

guachi · Jul 29, 2017

Gladius Legis said:
Not much to change about the Rogue, it's one of the most well designed classes in 5e all around.

The one thing I would definitely change, however, is allowing Sneak Attack with all light weapons (in addition to finesse and ranged). That would allow Sneak Attacks with clubs, light hammers and handaxes. Going up behind someone and zonking them in the head with a club unawares, in particular, is a very iconic Sneak Attack. And it'd allow for STR-based thuggish Rogues right out of the box, which wouldn't be any more effective mechanics-wise than existing Rogue builds, anyway, but at least it'd actually give us a working mechanical expression of that common Rogue concept.

Perhaps add this as a new archetype. It would give them something new and different that's not really game-breaking. In fact, it's so not-game-breaking it might almost be worthy of ribbon-level and then you could add some sturdier mechanics on top of that to enhance this concept. Though what that would be, I don't know.

But I do like the idea.

Volund · Jul 29, 2017

The rogue is already awesome. Every level you get useful new abilities. Except for AT spells, all of your abilities are always on and ready to be used. They are a little less awesome if your DM won't let you use sneak attack on AoO if you already used sneak attack on your turn. (I don't know why this is an issue for some DM's, when they are the ones moving the monsters, but apparently it is.) If I could change one thing, it would be the restriction on wizard schools for AT spells. The 1/3 spell progression is already limiting enough. Having a lower save DC than the typical wizard also affects your spell selection. Just let the AT pick whatever spells they want. (Same for EK!) Conjuration and transmutation schools seem just as rogue-ish as enchantment and illusion with an excellent assortment of infiltration and escape spells: Alter Self, Misty Step, Gaseous Form, Find Familiar, Fog Cloud, Fly, Spider Climb, Levitate, Dimension Door, Polymorph.

GX.Sigma · Jul 29, 2017

I like the Rogue a lot. It encourages creativity from the player in order to take advantage of its unique abilities, which perfectly matches the identity of the class itself.

What could be better:

Some of the subclass stuff is a little weird, especially on the Assassin side. Do you need surprise? Do you need to win initiative? Both? Either? I can never remember.
Sneak Attack IMO is a little bit too easy to get for how much of a bonus it is. I remember running the Starter Set characters through some sample encounters, and the ranged Rogue was dealing more damage than the melee Fighter every single round (and taking no damage, since he was at the back of the party). I legitimately thought there was a typo on the sheets. House rules: Sneak Attack only works on your turn. Sneak Attack does not work with ranged weapons. Sneak Attack with melee weapons requires advantage. Flanking grants advantage.
So many reactions that let you take half damage actually makes the Rogue very tough/resilient, which feels kinda wrong. I know the flavor is that you're avoiding the attack, but in practice it's just extra hit points.
Arcane Trickster's focus on mage hand is really cheesy, and auto-succeeds (i.e., ruins the fun of) disabling traps. I guess this is more a criticism of mage hand (in my game, it's a 1st level spell, and Arcane Trickster is not allowed).
Slightly too many class features to keep track of, especially compared to the Champion Fighter.
Picking a lock as a bonus action? Please.

GX.Sigma · Jul 29, 2017

Elfcrusher said:
2) Create a reason to make daggers preferable (at least in some way) to short swords. (Oh, and delete rapiers from the game. Thanks.)

House rules from my game:

The 1d4 dagger is now known as "knife."
"Daggers," "short swords," and "rapiers" all use the 1d6 short sword stats.
The 1d8 finesse sword is a special NPC Elf thing.

Ganymede81 · Jul 29, 2017

Gladius Legis said:
Not much to change about the Rogue, it's one of the most well designed classes in 5e all around.

The one thing I would definitely change, however, is allowing Sneak Attack with all light weapons (in addition to finesse and ranged). That would allow Sneak Attacks with clubs, light hammers and handaxes. Going up behind someone and zonking them in the head with a club unawares, in particular, is a very iconic Sneak Attack. And it'd allow for STR-based thuggish Rogues right out of the box, which wouldn't be any more effective mechanics-wise than existing Rogue builds, anyway, but at least it'd actually give us a working mechanical expression of that common Rogue concept.

I agree with this.

It isn't even like they limited sneak attacks to finesse attacks even; they still allow sneak attacks with strength as long as they are a finesse weapon. In short, it seems little more than a poorly thought out fluff restriction that, as you said, ignores the fact that we often envision roguish types making sneak attacks with weapons that are not styled as finesse weapons.

Leatherhead · Jul 29, 2017

The biggest problems with Rogues happen to be problems with other subsystems of the game, like bonus action attacks, the weapon table, and stealth rules.
Other than that, I would make sneak attack be less fiddly (as in just let the thing work every round), and apply it with all the light weapons.

Mostly though, I would be more likely to take ideas from the Rogue, and apply them to other classes that need help, like Fighters.

Miladoon · Jul 29, 2017

guachi said:
... In fact, it's so not-game-breaking it might almost be worthy of ribbon-level and then you could add some sturdier mechanics on top of that to enhance this concept...

Ganymede81 said:
... In short, it seems little more than a poorly thought out fluff restriction that, as you said, ignores the fact that we often envision roguish types making sneak attacks with weapons that are not styled as finesse weapons.

Leatherhead said:
...
Other than that, I would make sneak attack be less fiddly (as in just let the thing work every round), and apply it with all the light weapons...

Gladius Legis said:
Not much to change about the Rogue, it's one of the most well designed classes in 5e all around.

The one thing I would definitely change, however, is allowing Sneak Attack with all light weapons (in addition to finesse and ranged). That would allow Sneak Attacks with clubs, light hammers and handaxes. Going up behind someone and zonking them in the head with a club unawares, in particular, is a very iconic Sneak Attack. And it'd allow for STR-based thuggish Rogues right out of the box, which wouldn't be any more effective mechanics-wise than existing Rogue builds, anyway, but at least it'd actually give us a working mechanical expression of that common Rogue concept.

I am about to apply a house rule in an upcoming myth weavers game that allows SA with ranged, finesse, simple light (not unarmed), and the longsword. Adding longsword seems like the right thing to do since they happen to be proficient with them. But I agree with you.

D&D 5E Building a better Rogue

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