D&D 5E A New Culture?

Warpiglet

Adventurer
I have read with interest a recent threads about balance and race choices. During the discussion I began wondering if there has been some culture shift in the community that I have been ignoring.

What I found in that thread was worry that characters would not be viable unless the race and the class fit an archetype. As an example, unless you take a halfling for a rogue thief, you are nuts! A half-orc wizard? Madness!

In the dark ages, we relished taking things that were off center. A particularly strong cleric? Cool. A half-orc paladin? Novel. A strong halfling fighter? Off the beaten path. And so forth. Unconventional ability placement? Sometimes fun. (Here I must note that this might really just mean a different high score without totally gimping the main stat). I have never played in a group that totally ignored effectiveness.

However, I have taken a mace in place of a d8 longsword because it looks cool for some characters. I even (gasp) like shortswords better than rapiers for personal aesthetic reasons...

In 5e I have enjoyed taking backgrounds that are not "optimal" for dungeon environments but are fun for character development.

Lest you get the idea that I am into some sort of high drama roleplay without combat, let me assure you I prefer most play to be devoted to fighting and conflict. Exploring is cool, but swinging swords is the best! Roleplaying is fun in almost all situations (though I don't like to barter over coppers ad nauseum...get the adventure going!).

But in the discussion about the need to match half-orc with champion fighter, it seemed that many people were afraid their character would simply die young if they did not make the "best" choice.

This is where I am really confused.

First, the variability in rolling for stats seems to suggest that there can be different levels of ability. Additionally, party size can vary. Lastly, there are feats in most games. As a result:

This does not seem to suggest that the game is perfectly balanced and that life hinges on perfect efficiency. If it did, wouldn't certain class and race combinations be restricted? Wouldn't party size be mandated? Would stat rolling be allowed at all?

In many cases, we are talking about 2 points in a stat difference for "optimal" pairings. How often is that going to be the difference between life and death over the course of a campaign? It could be I guess, but if I only play cookie cutter characters, how much does it matter? I already have a template so I can start over and recreate the "perfect" array.

If we are talking about a +1 bonus say in AC, we are saying we are worried about one number on the die difference. I am wringing my hands about being hit on an 11 or higher instead of a twelve or higher in a particular case. One number on the die...is that one number THAT pivotal often?
 

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Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
I've seen this kind of poo-poo-ing sub-optimal choices going on in the early-ish days of 3e, so it's definitely not a new phenomenon...
 

Arilyn

Hero
I've seen this kind of poo-poo-ing sub-optimal choices going on in the early-ish days of 3e, so it's definitely not a new phenomenon...

Yes, unfortunately. And going way back to Advanced, this attitude was practically baked in through restrictions. Does anyone remember that old Dragon cartoon with the last human thief? Back in 3.5 days I made a multi-class LG halfling necromancer/ranger. There were enough non evil necromancer spells by that point that it worked. He was an undead slayer. Had a lot of fun with that character.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
One number on the die...is that one number THAT pivotal often?

For some groups, most likely it is.

There are plenty of groups that run on the premise that the "game" aspect of D&D is a set of mechanical challenges to overcome. And it's the DM's job to throw exceedingly difficult challenges at the players-- challenging enough that any single aspect that doesn't lend itself to overcoming those challenges can be an anchor that weighs the group down.

People hate it when D&D gets compared to "video games"... but there are some groups that treat D&D combat along the same lines of your high-end raiding groups do to MMOs. For those raid groups... you work hard to build your characters up to tackle the toughest challenges using the game mechanics you have at your disposal. The D&D game can be played the same way...

...and there is nothing wrong with that.

It's a different way of playing than many groups do, and we need to be clear here that this way of engaging with the game mechanics of D&D combat does not preclude the roleplaying aspects of the game as well. Groups CAN AND DO do both.

But for those groups that don't treat combat that hard and fast... yeah the really intricate details of squeezing every last drop out of the mechanics might seem like overkill. Probably because for their particular table, it WOULD BE overkill. But just know that for some others... those +1s and extra features here and there are a necessity for PC survival because their DM ain't pulling punches and ain't giving ground.

It's not how I particularly enjoy playing, but I can certainly see and acknowledge why others do. After all... this *is* a "game", and sometimes you want to work to be the very best at whichever part you have chosen to focus on and play.
 

Warpiglet

Adventurer
For some groups, most likely it is.

There are plenty of groups that run on the premise that the "game" aspect of D&D is a set of mechanical challenges to overcome. And it's the DM's job to throw exceedingly difficult challenges at the players-- challenging enough that any single aspect that doesn't lend itself to overcoming those challenges can be an anchor that weighs the group down.

People hate it when D&D gets compared to "video games"... but there are some groups that treat D&D combat along the same lines of your high-end raiding groups do to MMOs. For those raid groups... you work hard to build your characters up to tackle the toughest challenges using the game mechanics you have at your disposal. The D&D game can be played the same way...

...and there is nothing wrong with that.

It's a different way of playing than many groups do, and we need to be clear here that this way of engaging with the game mechanics of D&D combat does not preclude the roleplaying aspects of the game as well. Groups CAN AND DO do both.

But for those groups that don't treat combat that hard and fast... yeah the really intricate details of squeezing every last drop out of the mechanics might seem like overkill. Probably because for their particular table, it WOULD BE overkill. But just know that for some others... those +1s and extra features here and there are a necessity for PC survival because their DM ain't pulling punches and ain't giving ground.

It's not how I particularly enjoy playing, but I can certainly see and acknowledge why others do. After all... this *is* a "game", and sometimes you want to work to be the very best at whichever part you have chosen to focus on and play.

I suppose that people should just know there are choices...I would tend to avoid such a restrictive environment. It would not maximize my enjoyment.

However, I still find it hard to believe it is THAT tight. If it was, then one errant roll at any time will be lights out...even within the first session. To each their own!

I suppose the other thing that strikes me as foreign is the discussion about spotlight. In my decades of playing, we made characters and adventured. If it was all one class we would laugh and discuss with the DM what our group might want to accomplish.

The greater focus on optimization, having a planned group composition (beyond cursory discussion) and need for spotlight/protection of niche has not been a big part of my experience. It seems more common now, but perhaps not.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
I've seen this kind of poo-poo-ing sub-optimal choices going on in the early-ish days of 3e, so it's definitely not a new phenomenon...

Yeah, I was gonna say this as well. I recall one thing that turned me off of 3e was when I had mentioned I wanted to play an arcane archer and it was met with a chorus of "that's worthless! Choose this build instead!" Left a really bad taste in my mouth.

That said, I know some of this was back in AD&D too. As to the OP, I don't think there is a major culture shift. I think most people play the game like he does, and like I do. I.e., placing emphasis on what sounds/looks cool and not getting caught up in optimization. If I were to hazard a guess as to why the char op crowd seems to be larger and louder than it is (in ratio to gamers as a whole), is because that style of play inherently lends itself to people wanting to compare/brag about their builds to other people; always challenging each other as to who can build the most char op PC. Like it's a mini game within the greater game. Contrast that to gamers who like to build off of fluff, and we don't really feel the need to create discussions about how awesome our PC is just because they chose to dual wield daggers because it looked cooler in our mind or was based off a really cool literary figure we want to emulate.

*Edit* For example, most forums (including this one) have a dedicated forum for optimization. They don't for thematic fluff style of gameplay, even though I'm sure more gamers dont' get caught up in char op than gamers who do. I'm guessing that's for reasons I just listed.
 
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MechaPilot

Explorer
However, I still find it hard to believe it is THAT tight. If it was, then one errant roll at any time will be lights out...even within the first session. To each their own!

I really don't find it hard to believe it's that tight. Look at the low starting HP totals in D&D, especially in BECMI, AD&D 2e, and in 3e (starting with max HPs at first level was a houserule, not the way the books told you to play) where the rules on dying were less generous than they are now. It's pretty easy to roll a one or two on your starting HPs, especially if you're not playing a fighter (but even a fighter has a 1 in 5 chance of getting rolling that one or two at first level). Imagine being the fighter in the group and only having four HPs (2 rolled + 2 from Con bonus).
 

Warpiglet

Adventurer
I really don't find it hard to believe it's that tight. Look at the low starting HP totals in D&D, especially in BECMI, AD&D 2e, and in 3e (starting with max HPs at first level was a houserule, not the way the books told you to play) where the rules on dying were less generous than they are now. It's pretty easy to roll a one or two on your starting HPs, especially if you're not playing a fighter (but even a fighter has a 1 in 5 chance of getting rolling that one or two at first level). Imagine being the fighter in the group and only having four HPs (2 rolled + 2 from Con bonus).

I guess my group has been breathtakingly foolhardy for ages! I played AD&D 1e, but it did not seem often that it came down to such a small margin. If we had TPK it was by a pretty wide margin.

I guess the other question would be what percentage of players treat the game in this way (i.e. feeling the need to wring every advantage out in order to simply be viable)?

If this IS a necessity in some games, I believe it is secondary to the DM at those tables vs. a function of the rules or intention of the designers.

If people like D&D that way, cool. I play war games and such where advantages and optimization are the name of the game. I just do not think D&D MUST be played this way based on extant rulesets...
 

Ristamar

Adventurer
I really don't find it hard to believe it's that tight. Look at the low starting HP totals in D&D, especially in BECMI, AD&D 2e, and in 3e (starting with max HPs at first level was a houserule, not the way the books told you to play) where the rules on dying were less generous than they are now.

I'm fairly certain max HP at 1st level was part of the 3e core rules.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Some observations and thoughts.

The game has shifted progressively toward player enablement for decades. In OD&D and AD&D, the game was presented as one where the the DM is in charge, and the players are coming to play in their game. The DM, especially before the publication of settings like Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and the Realms, was expected to design the setting, assuming there was one. Many just played the published adventures.

Dragon magazine had new races, classes, and such, but only those noted or the ones written by Gary Gygax were "official" and even when actually published, were usually treated as optional. It was always up to the DM as to what options you had available beyond the PHB.

I think Dragonlance was the first setting to include a different mix of races and class options, with kenders and gully dwarves among other things. At the time, they differentiated the setting. The Realms had smaller tweaks initially (elves were taller than humans, which was different than Greyhawk and Krynn). But these were limited (in general) to their settings.

At some point, TSR figured out that there were far more players that DMs. The majority of the books (monster manuals, etc.) and adventures were published for DMs, though. They could greatly increase sales if they started targeting the players. I see this as a dramatic shift in design and presentation of the game. Now, there were books of a great many options for the players, and despite them being "optional," they wanted to play them. They spent the money, they liked the ideas, and that seems reasonable enough.

By 3e, instead of publishing player and DM books, they combined them altogether. So a new FR release, for example, contained setting information (primarily copied from the 2e sourcebooks), and new races, classes, feats, spells, and magic items. This pattern was very consistent (at least in the Forgotten Realms). This was an even bigger shift. Because now all of those options were canonical. The DM couldn't say as easily that "I don't like that race, and they are optional, they aren't part of the Realms." No, now they were officially part of the Realms, and limiting options was now seen as the DM taking something away. Things were sometimes still labeled optional, but in practice, anything published in a core or canon book is generally treated as not optional. I think feats tend to be the default for 5e for example.

The second major shift that this caused was an ever growing list of options. Initially, the options were presented with few mechanical differences. The earliest "Complete" books had very little mechanical impact, they were almost entirely fluff. It was focused on the role-playing aspect (pillar?) of the game. But that soon shifted, and mechanical aspects became a bigger and bigger part.

For example, in 2e, there are no mechanical benefits to joining the Harpers as described in Code of the Harpers. Master Harpers gain some benefits, but they are reminiscent of the Jedi Council, and you have to be selected by them to be a Master Harper. It seems pretty clear that the abilities are for high level NPCs, not PCs. The only thing that is gained when fully becoming a Harper is the Harper Pin, which is a magic item of some considerable defensive value.

But in 3e, everything must be crunch. So now a Harper is a one of a couple of prestige classes, gaining all sorts of mechanical benefits.

There have always been gamers that approach D&D as a game of rules and numbers to be optimized. Munchkinizers, min/maxers, optimizers, whatever you want to call them (often derivatively). This became a problem for many in 2e, simply because there was an enormous amount of power creep in the releases over the years. Things were often rushed, it seems that being a publisher took priority over game designers. So the quality of the game design suffered. All of these new rules provided lots of opportunity for optimizing, and even potentially "breaking" the game.

I recall for quite some time how most players I knew (and I'm sure I participated) disapproving of this new play style. Their focus was entirely on rules, and not on role-playing. But in 1e/2e, it was also relatively easy to avoid, because as the DM you were expected to modify the rules for your campaign, or just not allow it at all. I almost always allowed everything that was published at the time (including from 3rd party and magazines). I didn't have an issue dealing with "overpowered" characters, primarily because most mechanical benefits are combat oriented, and combat is typically only about a third of the campaign and not the focus for us. Other players were always more concerned about the story and narrative than who did what in combat.

In addition, we were caught up in the power creep as much as anybody at the time. The fact that the Realms of the novels was one of high magic and high level characters helped along with that. So we didn't really care if somebody was optimizing a bit more than the rest of the players. Nobody was well balanced in the late 2e era with options. We just went with it (and also largely got it out of our systems by the 3e crunch days - I didn't have many optimizers by then).

Another shift that happened was the introduction of the standard array as the default option for character creation. With that, every optimizer would know exactly what they are starting with. By studying the rules, you could map out "optimal" paths of abilities. I think this was the missing link for the introduction of the "character build." You could still discuss options before, but with a set starting point, you could design the "best" rogue in a way that everybody else could copy it. This was a key step for the player enablement - that a player can play the exact character of their choice.

Again, from a D&D player standpoint at the time, what did it most resemble? Magic: The Gathering.

The fact is, these differing playstyles always existed. I'm sure my perception of how things evolved isn't the same as everybody elses. But there are some key features that I think changed the landscape of D&D in a big way:

Player enablement is the big one for me. For many, it's not the DMs game anymore. The DM doesn't have the authority they used to have, for good and bad. Many, like me, still run the game that way. The setting, rules, and options for you to choose are in my domain. But the game itself is the players, and they are always welcome to challenge or question those decisions. Most of the time we find what works best for that group. I'm not sure if I have any non-negotiables. I can't think of any. This helps ensure

The standard array is another. The approach I use most often is to roll your stats, in order. That's what you're born with. You don't have any control over that. Mathematically, it's almost the same as the standard array (roll 3d6, reroll 1s once). You can roll up to six sets and select the one you like best (if rolling a single character). Usually we make 3 at a time, roll six, pick three.

Over the years, game balance has been all over the place. When optimizers weren't a huge part of the gaming community and/or the rules had so few options that there was little to optimize, being unbalanced wasn't a big problem. Wizards were horrible at low levels, everybody knew that, and people who played wizards really wanted to play wizards. Perhaps it was because they knew they'd be the most powerful characters by the time they reached 7th level or above, but you really had to stick through a lot to get there.

When the game has more options, there's more to optimize. Then balance becomes a bigger problem for most games. The late 2e/2.5e years were notoriously bad in terms of game balance. I think this is the time where optimizers really started to find their niche. Note that from a game design standpoint, designing an awesome set of game rules is much easier when playing to the optimization approach. Sure, you have to work hard to have lots of options and get them to balance. But the 3e designers did a great job of redesigning the 2.5e mess into a coherent and workable system. The problem they ran into was the same as 2e, though. Supplements, and the inevitable power creep that comes with it.

I think that happened largely because of optimization - new abilities had to compete (balance) with the best options of earlier releases. Which means that the less optimal ones became even less optimal. The rules had become the bigger part of the game. It makes sense, it's easy to explain, and easy for people to understand since they can compare it to other games and rules. It's a logical exercise. The RPG side is hard to explain. "It's like playing make-believe when you're a kid." OK, except most haven't done that in ages, and never learned how to do it well. Role-playing exercises in business training are probably among the most hated kind of training. Heck, the gaming community has a tough time defining role playing or RPGs.

The 4e rules proved you could write a well balanced set of rules that would scale, allow optimizers to do what they do, but not break the game. It is a beautifully designed set of rules. But for many (most?) it went too far. It lost touch with the RPG side. It was too crunchy for many who didn't want to optimize. For me it felt too much like MtG. I wanted to show my then 7 year old daughter how to play, and went to sit down to make a character, and realized that it was going to take hours to accomplish that, and she didn't understand any of the options because there was no context yet. Fortunately, DnD Next with Keep on the Borderlands was available. This is what I wanted. I started with the Holmes Basic Set and the MM. This makes sense - roll some abilities, pick a class, and go on an adventure.

Incidentally, I never could get into MtG. I'm not an optimizer. And I've found that you really have to be, because a large part of winning consistently is building a good deck. On the flip side, a friend of mine is a killer optimizer. It comes naturally. Within weeks of learning how to play MtG he would consistently win any draft he entered (until PAX - he wasn't that good yet...). He could not play D&D. Literally could not. He could not imagine playing a character that didn't exist. In combat he could select a spell, and that sort of thing. But anything outside of combat he could not do. At all. I've never seen anything like it.

With players coming from video games, MtG, board games, it's very easy to do what I call "playing the rules." This also leads very easily into wanting to optimize to those rules. It makes perfect sense. How do you play almost any other game on the planet? You read the rules and follow them.

You know where you don't do that? Sports. In sports, the rules offer boundaries. Take baseball. You have to hit the ball. You have to swing, or you'll be out on strikes. The field has boundaries where the ball has to land. Other than that, you can hit the ball wherever you are capable of hitting the ball. You practice hitting, and might be a power hitter, but always hitting for the fences also tends to mean you miss a lot as well. Other players recognize they don't have the power (and aren't training for it), and are focused on connecting more frequently. Most fall somewhere in between. You can hit it left-handed, right-handed, and you don't even have to take a full swing.

The rules don't tell you what you can do, they tell you what you can't.

The D&D rules have moved the other direction. More and more rules that tell you what you can do. They grant you an ability above and beyond what others can do. And if you combine them, you can sometimes do more. And since combat is among the most common encounters, and is the crunchiest (combat engages the mechanical rules), then it's only natural for some folks to focus on the rules, and which options and combinations are the "best."

And that holds true, if you play the rules. I teach a lot of new players, and I love it. My approach is the same as it was in 1e. Build a character in broad strokes: Do you want to be sneaky, a good fighter, or a spellcaster? There are four basic classes, fighter, rogue, cleric, and wizard. We'll help build the character, and get to the adventure. Tell us what you want to do, and we'll tell you how to do it.

Once they've actually played, then we can tweak their character - so you don't have to be a wizard, sorcerers cast spells a little differently. Fighters have a couple of options, or you can be a ranger or a paladin. We'll modify the character for the first couple of levels. They'll get to see other people play other characters. And they aren't limited to what the rules tell them they can do. They tell us what they want to do, we tell them how likely it is to succeed, and how to try. In other words, we approach the game by playing the character, and let the rules set the boundaries.

Is one better than the other? Of course not. They also aren't exclusive, unless you choose to make them that way. The type of campaign and DM can make a huge difference as to what fits best. The 5e rules do a great job in my opinion of balancing the races, classes, and feats, and also a good balance of crunchiness vs. role-playing. While there will always be some amount of optimizing, 5e has worked hard to make every option viable. That is, even when you're playing with a group that has some hardcore optimizers, the other players don't have to. In the past, that could be difficult for some groups.
 

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