5E comparison 3e 5e metamagic - Page 2
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  1. #11
    As it turns out, there's no shame in admitting it feels like falling into a crappile of arcane complexity

  2. #12
    Thanks for your improvements. Just took another stab at sorting out Heighten.

    Also expanded the overall comparison section.

    It seems to me everybody could benefit from reading the edit history. I just checked, the "edited by" line becomes a clickable link only to the threadstarter (me, in this case). But what if I post that link:
    http://www.enworld.org/forum/posthistory.php?p=7190762

    Will it float?
    Last edited by CapnZapp; Thursday, 10th August, 2017 at 11:58 AM.

  3. #13
    Nope, apparently the system checks for id at the gate. No matter, here's the history, copypasta style:



    Careful Spell lets you select a number of targets that make their save automatically. No direct d20 equivalent through of course Sculpt Spell does something similar.

    -

    Distant Spell doubles the range. Its Enlarge Spell and Reach Spell in one.

    +

    Distant Spell doubles the range. Its Enlarge Spell and Reach Spell in one.


    Empowered Spell lets you reroll some damage dice. In d20, it added 50%.

    Extended Spell doubles the duration, much like it did in d20.

    -

    Heightened Spell makes one target save with disadvantage. Previously, it both increased the save DC and did what we nowadays accomplish by upcasting.

    +

    Heightened Spell makes one target save with disadvantage, which is one way of "increasing" the save DC. In 3e/PF, the save DC scaled with spell slot level, but you couldn't "upcast" unless you used heighten spell. Thus, the specific effect of d20-Heighten is redundant in 5e (spell save DC scales with character level, no upcasting needed).

    In 5e, "upcasting" (which you don't need metamagic to do) instead increases the spell's effects (damage, number of targets etc) on a spell-per-spell basis. In return, this ability was redundant in d20 where damage, range etc scaled universally with "character"* level**!
    *) actually, with something called "caster level", which is like character level, but counting levels like you do for determining multiclass spell slots. That is, you only count, say, half your paladin levels and only a third of your Rogue levels (if you have the Arcane Trickster feature).
    **) up to a certain extent. Fireball, for instance, stopped getting better at caster level 10.



    Quickened Spell changes the casting time action type, but that in itself isn't the big deal. In short, it meant Fireball + Fireball in d20, but means Fireball + Firebolt in 5E.

    -

    Subtle Spell removes the verbal and somatic requirements. That's both Still and Silent in d20 terms, a rare upgrade.

    +

    Subtle Spell removes the verbal and somatic requirements. That's both Still and Silent in d20 terms.


    Twinned Spell lets you attack a second target. No direct comparison.

    -



    From the d20 perspective Empowered (and Maximized) Spell has been reined in. Quicken outright nerfed. Widen and Sacred outright dropped.

    Disguised Spell was also dropped, but for other reasons. ("Bards not getting metamagic" and "the Bard changed" are equally likely in my mind)

    +


    ---

    Overall:

    The biggest upgrade in 5e over 3e/PF isn't directly related to any single metamagic effect. It's that you no longer pay by upcasting in higher-levelled spell slots.

    Another difference is that in d20 you generally got access to metamagic through feats - each metamagic effect required you to pick a specific feat.

    Of course 5e metamagic is a Sorcerer class feature, which explains all of this. You don't need feats in 5e, you simply take your pick of metamagic effects at certain Sorcerer levels.

    And you don't need to upcast your spells, you pay for your metamagic with sorcery points.

    ---

    All in all, this makes metamagic much more accessible and much less accessible at the same time.

    A 5e Sorcerer can use metamagic even on level 9 spells, since there's no need for "level 10" slots you don't have. The cost in sorcery points even stay the same for several metamagic effects regardless of the spell level.

    But if you aren't a Sorcerer, you can't do metamagic at all in 5e.


  4. #14
    Yech. That wasn't very useful, was it? I still need to do a printout of each and every diff pair if I am going to give you access to your own words. I've asked over in the official wiki thread if you guys can't get readonly access to the diffs, so you don't have to make private copies of your own contributions.

    Tony made these words:


    -

    Heightened Spell makes one target save with disadvantage. Previously, it both increased the save DC and did what we nowadays accomplish by upcasting.

    +

    Heightened Spell makes one target save with disadvantage. Previously, it scaled scaled save DC with slot level, which would be redundant in 5e, where DC scales with character level. Since you can now 'Heighten' even your top-level spells and gain a benefit, seems like an upgrade.

    +



    I suppose it also bears mentioning that 5e metamagic is a Sorcerer class feature, rather than a set of generally-available feats, and paid for with sorcery points, instead of a higher-level slot.


    Then cbwjm further improved thusly:

    Heightened Spell makes one target save with disadvantage. Previously, it scaled scaled save DC with slot level, which would be redundant in 5e, where DC scales with character level. Since you can now 'Heighten' even your top-level spells and gain a benefit, seems like an upgrade.

    +

    Heightened Spell makes one target save with disadvantage. 3e scaled save DC with slot level and required use of heighten spell to increase the save DC of spells cast using higher level spell slots. This is redundant in 5e as spell save DC scales with character level. Since you can now 'Heighten' even your top-level spells and gain a benefit, seems like an upgrade.
    Last edited by CapnZapp; Thursday, 10th August, 2017 at 12:24 PM.

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