resource-management in the endgame [Pathfinder] [spoilers]

I have a question on the expected resource-management load in the endgame:

The last time the party has true downtime is near the beginning of adv12, after they get a letter from Rackus, when they are getting ready to send their airship into the void. So we'll assume the party is fully-rested, has a full loadout of consumable gear, and their prepared casters have chosen a good loadout of spells geared towards surviving in the Dreaming.

Then the party has several encounters that occur in-and-around Clover, which will presumably cause them to take damage, drink some potions, and cast some spells. They might not be on-guard to carefully converse, and might splurge. (This is an event foretold in the timetemple of adv8, and scenes like that can justify some high spend.)

After Av is shattered, the living-half of the players' souls end up in rural Risur (adv13). From this point, they now become aware that they are on a no-rest-until-the-game-ends marathon. Time to save up the big guns and be miserly with spell slots.

Are the PCs fully-healed at this point? Or do they have to live with the consequences of their spend in the Dreaming? It might be easy enough to say that everyone's at full-HP, but what about prepared casters? Do they get a fresh loadout of spells, or are they trapped into their Dreaming-specialized spec? In Pathfinder rules, it's possible for certain classes (like the Wizard), to have all their slots "fresh", and thus only require an hour's time to fill - but until then, a fresh slot is an empty slot. So if we fresh-wipe the Wizard, then he's got no spells for the first fight of adv13 (which occurs at their wakeup location). Other caster-types, like Clerics, don't even have this option.

As for gear, it's pretty clear that anything consumed during the time in Clover is still gone, but is there really any time to buy (seize?) new scrolls in Flint after it is liberated? If so, that can be tantamount to a full-heal-style-refresh, taken right before the final battle.

I'm not GMing Zeitgeist right now, but I'm a player in a high-level dungeoncrawl right now (Scarwall, if anyone's curious), and attrition and careful resource management is playing a heavy role there, and it got me thinking about Zeitgeist's great final sprint.

They're also supposed to level up mid-"Grinding Gears." The PCs in Avatar are at max level, fully healed, having just woken from a strange dream and perhaps knowing talents and infused with magical power they did not previously have. I'd have them start with fully prepared spells, and before they leave Flint for Axis Island they could certainly have local casters heal them, but I wouldn't let them shop for anything powerful enough to make a difference.

Honestly, high-level combat can be such ridiculous rocket tag that I tried to give the final encounter a mandatory pacing, and at least some sort of puzzle component since if nothing else, Nicodemus is basically invincible at the beginning. I just finished playing the finale of Iron Gods, and we stomped the final fight because we could all focus fire on the big bad. But in that case we only had two encounters before the finale, whereas Z tries to deplete at least your spells with the cold ziggurat, Harkover in Flint, and an individual encounter for each PC. Even if the party is very strong going into the final fight, I wanted to at least give the scene a narrative component to string it out. Make them do stuff other than unload all their strongest attacks in a single round.

However, based on ltclnlbrain's recounting, I apparently made it too easy to just jump on the airship and take that out, then talk to the colossus, while ignoring the ritual entirely. I really want people to fiddle with the ritual, with some action on the airship, some on the ritual.

Perhaps the airship should be invincible at the start too, protected by a shield that hedges out enemies and teleportation and which seems to be mostly immune to cannonfire. Let the first couple rounds just completely stymie the PCs' efforts, and then they witness Borne slotting the air pillar into place, which grants Nicodemus a surge of power. Then make it clear that they could use similar power to take out the ship's shield if they could change one of the icons.

In my experience even after 7th level, it's pretty hard to ever have PCs go into a fight at less than full HP.

Thanks for your response. Though I'll admit, there's a few things in there that confused me.

I haven't read the 4e version, but in the Pathfinder version, there's no leveling up in either adv12 nor adv13. The party is level 19 for adv11, and then dings as they bring low the catastrophe dragon. The party then just holds steady at level 20 throughout the last two books. That's part of why the helix-plotline can work so well.

If we want the players to wake up in adv13 (which, according to their souls' timeline, just moments ago failed to save Av from destruction) having fully healed, and fully restored all of their per-day abilities, because of the awesome power of the Gyre or somesuch, then sure, that can work. The GM can just snap his fingers, the PCs don't have to make any in-game choices, and they're all powered up. The problem is how prepared spellcasters work in Pathfinder.

In every highish level Pathfinder game that I've played in (or GMed), where the PCs know there's going to be an attrition-fest ahead of them (such as before a dungeon crawl), there's a calculated strategic metagame on exactly what spells to prepare. And furthermore, for the classes that allow it (like Wizards), there's a strategy around what percentage of spell slots to remain "fresh" (and thus unusable in the short term). This ends up being a group decision, where the various casters work together, taking into account the various consumables (mostly scrolls), and trying to cover the most scenarios. (e.g. make sure the various elemental resistances are covered, ways to stop the enemies from teleporting away, ways to silence, ways to break silence, mitigation of death effects, etc. and this always takes into account what the party expects to be facing that day, and they change their loadout accordingly. You prep for "undead castle" differently than, say, "open battlefield of mooks" or "fiery dragon's lair")

Given the circumstances with how adv13 starts, I don't see how this can happen. There's no time for the PCs to get together and kibitz about what (and how much) to prep. So I'm not sure if I should wipe my prepared caster's spells, or let them keep them. The easiest thing might be to say that they wake up in some sort of weakened state atop the cold ziggurat, with fresh(empty) spell slots, and tell them it will take an hour to recover. They use that hour to kibitz and prep spells, and that hour is also how long it takes their ambushers to come along. (Point is, I don't want them running off.)


I read ItchyBrain's post too and was disappointed by it. I'm getting off-topic now, but I wonder if some of the RP-victory conditions are too easy? Going back and re-reading through adv8, it seems pretty easy to realize that you've got to go see the daughter-death memory. Even if the other matriarch (forget her name, starts with an 'A') tries to disrupt the lead-in vision, it's obvious that you need to go to Seobriga and do the second one. And then you're pretty much set, as now you've basically locked Kasavarina onto your side. Then fast-forwarding to adv12, it seems pretty forgone that the PCs will end up on Ascetia (it's literally a lighthouse across the Gyre, and last waystation before the presumptive final boss), and once there, it seems pretty foregone that they'll befriend the shard of Miller's soul. There's no real difficulty, steps involved, or reasons for the PCs to choose another path. Once they've got those two alliances in their pocket (and throw in the fact that Recklinghausen was never really loyal to the cause anyway), it seems a bit foregone that the end combat (of adv13) turns into an easy RP-only victory. Again, there's no mechanics, multiple steps involved, or reason for the PCs not to just do it.

Call me crunch-obsessed, but maybe there are loyalty-wards built into planar-lantern that's in Borne's chest, and it prevents him from disobeying Nic. And the PCs have to do the shadow-of-the-colossus thing and climb into him and blow it up before Borne will listen to reason. Something like that. Anyway, the line between brainstorming and rambling is a thin one.

Back on topic: I agree that PCs are pretty much always at full HP. (Damn cheap wands of CLW, PCs buy 'em by the bundle.) What they aren't always full on are "sticky" conditions. Like stat drain, or curses, or negative levels. These things require spells with expensive material components in order to alleviate (see: Restoration, Greater). And if the PCs aren't packing those spells (or willing to burn that kind of gold "until it gets bad enough"), then that's what hangs around the high-level party's neck as they trudge through the dungeon. And those are exactly the sort of scrolls they'd want to buy in Flint after they liberate it from the Hex-Eater (which, again, can be tantamount to a full-rest).

Anyway, I doubt I'll ever get this far but it's fun to think about. Such great enemies with such great statblocks. Love spending time reading and studying them.

(I think it's supposed to be "Lt. Colonel Brain.")

I like your rambling brainstorm.

It was Lt. Col. Brain. (I made the alias when I was 12 and didn't really understand abbreviations. ) But I kind of like "Itchy Brain" too.

Yeah, making everything immune unless the PCs interact with the ritual would probably be a good change.