mellored
Legend
I though it seemed off...
You are correct. Fixed.
[GUIDE] Born to be Wild, a sorcerer guide.
You are correct. Fixed.
mellored
Legend
Recaculated the spell bombardment as a %.
It's a bit better than I thought. About 15% for pure dice spells, being better for smaller dice. Though since disintegrate and finger of death are half flat damage, it's only 6% for them.
Cognomen's Cassowary
First Post
Cool, but I think you used the original numbers for the RP/neutral category:
I appreciate the effort, but those percentages only hold true as long as you are rolling a single die. Using d12s as an example:
1 die, 0.083 chance to roll maximum, 0.54 (8.3%) added damage
2 dice, 0.160 chance to roll at least one maximum, 1.04 (8.0%) added damage
3 dice, 0.230 chance to roll at least one maximum, 1.49 (7.6%) added damage
etc.
Now with d4s:
1 die, 0.25 chance to roll maximum, 0.625 (25%) added damage
2 dice, 0.438 chance to roll at least one maximum, 1.093 (21.9%) added damage
3 dice, 0.578 chance to roll at least one maximum, 1.445 (19.3%) added damage
etc.
Notice the gained damage slowly decreasing with each added die.
If you were to graph it, you would find that the added damage is asymptotic with that die size's average damage. No matter how many d4s you roll, spell bombardment with never quite add 2.5 average damage.
This design has a few consequences. Though the gain is greater with small dice if you are only rolling one or two, it becomes greater for larger die sizes when you are rolling three or more, as you can see in the above comparison. Though small dice gain a greater percentage early, that percentage falls off rapidly.
For an extreme demonstration, consider a vitriolic sphere cast at both 4th level and at 9th, ignoring the 5d4 damage added on the opponents' turns. At fourth level, it deals 10d4 (25) damage, with spell bombardment adding 2.359, a gain of 9.4%. At ninth, it does 20d4 (50) damage, and spell bombardment adds 2.492, or 5.0%.
A third-level fireball, 8d6 (28) damage, gains 2.686 from spell bombardment, so it is already gaining more, both in absolute terms and as a percentage, than a vitriolic sphere at 4th or at 9th.
[There is a caveat with this example, of course. Vitriolic sphere provides two chances to trigger spell bombardment, which makes it a very good spell for WMS.]
Thus, the general rule of thumb is, raw damage being equal, the sorcerer should choose the larger die size if he or she will still be rolling at least three dice. There are only a few cases where it actually comes up practically, though.
The best possible average gain with spells that are currently on the sorcerer list is 3.707 damage from . . . some spell, I don't remember which, cast at ninth level using 13d8, unless you count a crit on a ninth-level chromatic orb, which would deal 22d8 (99) damage and gain around 4.25 from spell bombardment. And then there's its function of increasing the value of rerolls with empowered spell. Anyway, enough trivia.
Spell bombardment will, on average, no matter the spell being cast, add less damage, on the first instance of damage, than the dragon's +Cha feature or the evoker's +Int. However, the big advantage of spell bombardment is that it can add damage to anything and add it more often, and several of the best damage spells at high levels are neither elemental nor evocation.
mellored
Legend
Blah. I miss read that... again...
Yea, back down to black it goes.
Hmm... i'm still not sure it's worth the delayed damage and the heavier miss penalty.
A level 4 vitrolic = 25 + 2.5 = 27.5 now ; 12.5 + 1.9 later = 14.4 later
A level 4 fireball = 31.5 + 2.8 = 34.3 now.
Hmm... yea. 7 less damage now for 14 damage next turn can be a good trade.
I calculated a few of the higher spells. Correctly this time.
Agreed.
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Cognomen's Cassowary
First Post
Okay, to make a start at commenting on spells . . .
I more or less agree with you on cantrips.
You are generous to witch bolt. Its up-front damage (6.5 average) is low compared to magic missile's (10.5), and the ongoing damage is only one die size larger that fire bolt, meaning that you have to get the added damage four times for it to pull even with magic missile and fire bolt spam. That's without factoring in the chance to miss, that an enemy can simply walk out of range to break the effect, and that it requires concentration. Except for that, the 1st-level ratings are good.
You overrate crown of madness, as well. You are virtually never going to get more than one redirected attack out of it--note that it's "a melee attack" and not the full attack action. The DM doesn't even necessarily have to make the character attack with a weapon. So you have to ask if, with a 2nd-level slot and concentration, you couldn't do more damage and/or exert more control by casting something else. The answer is almost always that you could.
I've never had the chance to try out gust of wind in play. How does it do? I has always seemed decidedly inferior to web to me.
You rate mirror image way too low. In a group that has regular combat encounters, it is one of the strongest spells in the game. In addition to protecting you, it can put your group way, way up in the action economy.
That's all I've got for 2nd level.
I more or less agree with you on cantrips.
You are generous to witch bolt. Its up-front damage (6.5 average) is low compared to magic missile's (10.5), and the ongoing damage is only one die size larger that fire bolt, meaning that you have to get the added damage four times for it to pull even with magic missile and fire bolt spam. That's without factoring in the chance to miss, that an enemy can simply walk out of range to break the effect, and that it requires concentration. Except for that, the 1st-level ratings are good.
You overrate crown of madness, as well. You are virtually never going to get more than one redirected attack out of it--note that it's "a melee attack" and not the full attack action. The DM doesn't even necessarily have to make the character attack with a weapon. So you have to ask if, with a 2nd-level slot and concentration, you couldn't do more damage and/or exert more control by casting something else. The answer is almost always that you could.
I've never had the chance to try out gust of wind in play. How does it do? I has always seemed decidedly inferior to web to me.
You rate mirror image way too low. In a group that has regular combat encounters, it is one of the strongest spells in the game. In addition to protecting you, it can put your group way, way up in the action economy.
That's all I've got for 2nd level.
mellored
Legend
You're not counting that firebolt can miss.
Also, at level 1, there isn't much to compete with concentration.
But your right about the range, i'll move it down a notch.
I was going to disagree with you, but I just noticed it says "humaiod".
So yea... down it goes.
Is has denial-on-miss. So even a high Str barbarian/paladin takes an extra turn to get to you. It also moves with you, so if you move back 30, they need to move 60'.
1 save and they can run right though web. Though it's a better effect if they get caught.
Mirror image is self. So it only protects you.
Cognomen's Cassowary
First Post
I was counting that fire bolt can miss; I just didn't mention it because it doesn't matter much. It just means that fire bolt spam is less swingy. I mean, if you really do the math, sans resistance and immunity:
Witch bolt does 6.5 on a hit, 13 on a crit, and 0 on a miss. If we assume 60/5/35% chance of those, respectively, it comes out to 4.55 average damage. The ongoing effect does 6.5 average damage, but only if the initial attack landed, and it cannot crit, so it averages 4.225 damage under our assumptions.
Magic missile averages 10.5 damage. Fire bolt does 5.5 on a hit, 11 on a crit, and 0 on a miss. Using the same assumptions, it averages out to 3.85 damage.
So then, witch bolt starts out 6.05 damage in the hole, and it gains an average of 0.375 per turn after the first. It therefore takes just over sixteen turns of witch bolt's ongoing damage for it to catch up, and, of course, it doesn't last that long. I guess you were right that my rough estimate was off.
You are correct that there aren't overwhelmingly better concentration options at first spell level, but part of the finesse of playing sorcerer is picking spells not just for a level or two. All that said, I think violet is the right place for witch bolt, since there are conceivable ways that metamagic can make it more fun.
Web creates difficult terrain, so it's not many characters who can stroll through unaffected, and it slows them going any direction, not just toward you. And there's the better save type.
That's a good point about gust of wind moving with you, and I'm not arguing against your evaluation by any means, but what has always concerned me is the 10' width. I guess it depends on how much dungeon crawling you do.
Uh . . . true, but not addressing either point I was driving at. Mirror image is phenomenally good at protecting you. In most practical scenarios, it is the equivalent of 4-6 added AC, averaged through the first ten attacks, and it provides more on the earlier attacks. It never goes obsolete, scales with the sorcerer's Dex, and scales with attackers' chance to hit. At the upper extreme, it can be worth 12 AC or more against the first attack. (If, for example, the enemy has an 80% chance to hit you, and if you have three illusions and thus only a 25% chance to be targeted, your chance of being targeted and hit is only 20%. That's the equivalent of making the attack roll go from requiring a 5+ to hit to requiring a 17+.) Heck, it doesn't stop functioning if you're incapacitated, restrained, or even unconscious.
And, again, in protecting you, mirror image can absorb a lot of enemy actions, which can quickly turn a fight in your group's favor.
mellored
Legend
Gust of wind is 10x60
vs web's 20x20, which isn't terribly hard to walk around either.
I'm not seeing it.
Anything that misses your duplicate would have missed you anyways. Raising your dex doesn't change that.
So this basicly absorbs 3 attacks, which is really good, but only if you are attacked several times in a minute. Which can be great for anyone regularly taking attacks (arcane trickster, eldrich knight, abjuration wizard), but I don't see many sorcerer's rushing in to tank (except stone, but that's still UA). So i don't see much use out of this. Much better to protect your whole party with a web, gust of wind, or blind. Or levitate/invisible yourself out of danger, or kill the enemy with shatter or scorching ray.
Also, multi-attack means it doesn't scale well. Since it will be taken out quicker. Though no concentration keeps it from competing with things like twin greater invisibility.
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Cognomen's Cassowary
First Post
I don't want to belabor the point, but any creature that passes the Str save only uses five feet of movement to gust of wind, if it is smart enough to step out perpendicular to the stream. A creature that passes the Dex save of web will expend ten to twenty feet getting out, no matter which way it goes.
Anything that misses your duplicate does not destroy your duplicate, which increases your functional AC on subsequent attacks. The Dex scaling is protection against low-level mooks throwing rocks to destroy your defenses, which in turn makes your defenses stronger against bigger threats.
First, the protection is front loaded, so you don't necessarily have to be attacked several times. If an enemy has a 60% chance to hit or crit you, mirror image is worth 9 AC against the first attack. Second, you contradict this point yourself when you bring multiattack into it. The more common multiattack becomes as you go up in level, the more opportunities mirror image has to eat attacks. Third, you don't always have control over when and how many times you are attacked.
I mean, rephrase it thus: The first attack made against you in the next minute has a 75% chance of failing to target you and being wasted. The second has at least a 65% chance. The third has at least a 50% chance. Subsequent attacks may also have a chance to fail.
You are saying that that spell, from a 2nd-level slot and without using concentration, rates no better than black?
Concentration, concentration, concentration, concentration/concentration. Also, Dex save and eventual Str check, Str save and doesn't affect ranged attacks, repeated Con saves and only affects two creatures out of a 2nd-level slot, limits your mobility and doesn't affect ranged attacks/ends if you attack or cast a spell. Also, disadvantage is a weaker effect than mirror image in most practical situations.
It can be hard to kill the enemy before combat starts. You are always in a position to target yourself.
For a demonstration, suppose we were in a sorcerer duel and your strategy were to burn me down. I have prepared by casting mirror image on myself. The gates open, we step out, you win initiative and cast scorching ray. Each ray has a 60/5/35% chance to hit/crit/miss against both me and my duplicates, so any that make it to me deal an average of 5.05 damage.
The first ray will be diverted 75% of the time. 5.05 * 0.25 = 1.26 damage to me, on average. If the attack was directed at me, or if it was directed at an illusion and missed, I will still have three duplicates. 0.25 + 0.75 * 0.35 = 51% chance I still have three dupes. 0.51 * 0.75 + 0.49 * 0.65 = 70% chance the next ray is diverted.
5.05 * 0.3 = 1.52 average damage. [Fast forward through the math.] 64.5% chance the next ray is diverted.
5.05 * 0.355 = 1.79 average damage. Mirror image just reduced the average damage of scorching ray from 15.15 to 4.57, a reduction of almost 70%. At third level, I should have around 19 hp, so you have knocked off about a quarter of my health. 93.3% of the time, I will still have at least one image at this point. I am going to win this duel.
If you rely on shield in this situation, all else being equal, the average total from scorching ray will be 9.45 damage, half your health. That makes mirror image (in this situation) worth just a little over twice what shield is, which is fitting for a 2nd-level spell. Except that's with all the attacks coming in one round, which is optimal for shield, and mirror image will most likely still be having an effect in the next round.
Mirror image scales with the number of attacks that are leveled in your direction, up to the point where all of the images are extinguished. Multiattack becoming more common makes it more likely that you will be attacked multiple times without being able to get to safety between the attacks, which only increases the value of mirror image. Further, every alternative defensive/control spell you named above is concentration. Concentration spells suffer much more from multiattack if you are making saves properly.
mellored
Legend
While we are belaboring...
Web, centered on the target, takes extra 10'. The other 10' was going to be spent moving in that direction anyways.
Gust takes an extra 5' side step out and a 5' side step to get back to you = 10'. Of course, that only counts if you are their target. But you can reposition it for next turns.
Still irrelevent. Dex scaling protects you exactly the same amount without it as much as it does with it.
With 1 dex, it can absorb 3 attacks.
With 100 dex, it can absorb 3 attacks.
Which is the biggest downside. The fact that it can be wasted.
Enemies see you protected and can simply ignore you until it's gone. Or you can cast it, kick down a door, and fine no one on the other side.
Nope.
You spent 1 action and a level 2 slot to block block 3 attacks.
They spent 1 action and a level 2 slot to make 3 attacks.
However, there's a good chance at least one of their first-turn sorching rays will land an extra 0.5 damage compared to your firebolt (a bit pedantic, yes. But magic missile won't work because you both have shield).
Also, mirror image only works if you know when the gates will open ahead of time. If you cast it, and there's a minute delay, you're out your slot.
If mirror image is effective the next round, that means it wasn't the first round.
It's 3 attacks max, no matter how you cut it.
Stiill a flat 3. Though you are correct that it makes it easier to not waste.
Perhaps a more poinent point would be that damage-per-attack scales. A kobold does 5 damage (*3 =15), a black dragon does 19 (*3 = 57).
I'll move it up to blue.
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