UGH?, ECL, Monster Classes, Class level, Character Level, and Level Adjustments....

cptg1481 · Jul 22, 2003

OK, so call me dense or whatever, but I am very confused right now about Effective Character Level, Class level and Level Adjustments with regards to Monster Classes and in particular as it pertains to the Mind Flayer.

Definitions and Other Data;

Class Level - are levels in one or more character classes. (Summarized from, SS PG 5)

Character Level – When a creature’s description refers to a character level, add any class levels it has to the base creatures HD to determine the character level. This is not the same as ECL (see below), which also includes level adjustment. The creature’s base save and base attack bonuses are based upon its character level. Thus a good measure of its effectiveness when adventuring. (SS PG 5)

ECL - the sum of a creatures level adjustment, hit dice and its class levels. Use character level for all game functions except awarding experience, determining starting equipment and how much experience a character needs to gain a new level. (Summarized from, SS PG 5)

Level Adjustment – a number added to a creature’s hit dice, and class levels to determine the level of character to which it would be equivalent as a PC. (Summarized from, SS PG 6)

Monster Class – the only way to take a level of a monster class is to be a monster of that type. An alternative to the Advancement system in the MM this allows players use Table 2-5: Experience and Level-Dependant Benefits from Chapter 2 (of SS)*. The racial abilities of the creature are simply distributed over a number of levels equal to a fully developed monster’s ECL. (Summarized from, SS PG’s 25-28)

“When using these rules (Chapter 3 SS)* to create a character with one or more levels in a monster class, you can ignore level adjustment. This is replaced by your characters class level” (from, SS PG 25)

Mind flayer – ECL 15, 8 racial HD, a Level Adjustment +7, and is a CR 8 encounter, “…The choice for Mind Flayer advancement is mostly moot unless the campaign extends itself to epic levels beyond 20th….” (Summarized from, SS PG 185)

In the most recent Dragon #310 – (From the SAGE page 99)

Question: A player of mine wants to create a Minotaur character. The average party level is 15 he says he can make a 1st level barbarian/14th level fighter Minotaur and be equal to the other player characters. I say he can only make a 7th level character (say 1 barbarian level and 6 fighter levels) because of the Minotaur’s ECL of 8 (8 minotaur + 1 barbarian + 6 fighter = 15th level) who’s right?

Answer: You are on the right track. You’ve figured out the right number of class levels the character can have but a Minotaur has 6 racial hit dice and a +2 level adjustment. Your example minotaur character does have an ECL of 15 (6HD, 7 class levels, and a +2 level adjustment), but it is a 13th level character with skill points, base saves, feats, ability score increases as a 13th level character. The Minotaur character starts with 15th level equipment, however, and earns experience as a 15th level character.

MY QUESTIONS:

1. Is a monster class level equal to a class level?

2. Does the player in question simply advance in monster levels just like a PC of the same level?

- I mean is it simply 1000K EXP to 2nd, 3000 to 3rd, 66000 to 12th and so on…or does the Level Adjustment come in there too?

- Does the level adjustment come into play anywhere before 15th level or is it figured in?

3. Does the mind flayer get new skills, feats and ability score increases based upon his hit dice or when he gains each monster level?

4. Based on the information above (the data not my questions) if my mind flayer PC has 66500 EXP to make him a 12th level

- What is his monster class level?

- What is his character level? (The basis of his skill points, base saves, feats, ability score increases)

- What is his ECL right now? (Based upon the MIND FLAYER monster class on PG 185-86 of SS)

- What is his class level?

5. According to the MIND FLAYER monster class level breakdown in SS (PG 186) and the class abilities he gets SR equal to 10 + class level.

- What is the SR of my mind flayer PC?

I am thoroughly confused, please help me anyone.

If he advances his mind flayer according exactly like a PC where he gets skill points, base saves, feats, ability score increases at each monster level instead of “hit dice” in the end when he reaches “mind flayer maturity” 7 levels more powerful than a mind flayer out of the MM.

My answers to some of my own questions:

Does the mind flayer get new skills, feats and ability score increases based upon his hit dice or when he gains each monster level?

Each HD

4. Based on the information above (the data not my questions) if my mind flayer PC has 66500 EXP to make him a 12th level

- What is his monster class level?
12

- What is his character level? (The basis of his skill points, base saves, feats, ability score increases)
I think its just 6 but who knows that’s why I asked

The rest…well, I am confused….

* Added for clarification

cptg1481 · Jul 22, 2003

DUH

OK so I found where it says that the monsters only get skills, BAB, feats etc with thier HD, which is cool....I think my PC has been giving himself skills and stuff at each monster class level.

I'll reverse engineer the numbers to find that out, but the rest of my questions remain...in addition to this one.

If he is a 6th level PC for skills, feats, BAB, saves and stuff, what is his class level if he currently has 6 out of 8 possible HD, an ECL of up to +7. The reason I ask is becasue his Spell Resistance is based upon his class level (see definitions above).

It's 12 then his SR is 10+12 for 22 if it's 6 then his SR is only 16.

Anyway, any help here would be swell.....

Gilwen · Jul 23, 2003

It's late so bearwith me and my typing skills, I tend to be long winded and talk in circles when I am tired

cptg1481 said:
MY QUESTIONS:

1. Is a monster class level equal to a class level?

Yes. The way to figure the number of monster class levelsany given monster has to take from SS is HD+ECL. The PC must take ALL of the monster levels first according to SS.

[qoute]
2. Does the player in question simply advance in monster levels just like a PC of the same level?
[/quote]

- I mean is it simply 1000K EXP to 2nd, 3000 to 3rd, 66000 to 12th and so on…or does the Level Adjustment come in there too?

- Does the level adjustment come into play anywhere before 15th level or is it figured in?
[/quote]
Yes, the character simply advances in monster levels like a pc. The level adjustment is alreday figured in. So if I am playing a monste with a level adjustment of 15 I have to take 15 monster classes (my skills, feats, abilities, etc are based off of HD at this point) and that leaves me only 5 "class" levels to apply to somehting else (at this point you gain skills, feats and ablities normally). Using the rules from SS you would follow the standard XP chart that the "normal" races follow. This is what I loved about the SS rules...you can stay on track without a bunch of other charts or having to calculate where you fall on the chart.

3. Does the mind flayer get new skills, feats and ability score increases based upon his hit dice or when he gains each monster level?

It is based on HD until the character is able to start taking levels in a class. Mechanically even when playing a regular race from the PHB it is still based on HD but since you gain a HD everytiem you level with those races it seemslike there is no distiction between HD and levels.
I have a player playing a Azer(level adjustment 6) from SS and he is stuck being a 2HD creature until he has enough XP to obtain 7 character levels, he also doesn't get the feat everyone else gets at third level until he gets that third HD at 7th level.

My answers to some of my own questions:

Does the mind flayer get new skills, feats and ability score increases based upon his hit dice or when he gains each monster level?

Each HD

Correct

4. Based on the information above (the data not my questions) if my mind flayer PC has 66500 EXP to make him a 12th level

- What is his monster class level?
12

Correct.

- What is his character level? (The basis of his skill points, base saves, feats, ability score increases)
I think its just 6 but who knows that’s why I asked

His character level is 12, but his skills, saves, feats, etc are not based off of hischaracter level but off of HD. When he gets that 13th level he can take normal classes and therefore gain a hd every level speeding up his improving of those things. The reason his saves, skills, feats etc don't improve with his character level is because he isn't getting a HD every level like a human would. A third level human is a 3 HD creature entitled to everythign a 3rd level character would get. A level 3 azer is only a 2 HD creature and does not get the third level benefits even though his character level is 3.

HTH,
Bryan

Gilwen · Jul 23, 2003

Re: DUH

If he has 12 levels of his monster class and SR is based off monster class levels and not HD then his SR would be 22.

Bryan

cptg1481 said:
If he is a 6th level PC for skills, feats, BAB, saves and stuff, what is his class level if he currently has 6 out of 8 possible HD, an ECL of up to +7. The reason I ask is becasue his Spell Resistance is based upon his class level (see definitions above).

It's 12 then his SR is 10+12 for 22 if it's 6 then his SR is only 16.

Anyway, any help here would be swell..... [/B]

Spatula · Jul 23, 2003

cptg1481 said:
1. Is a monster class level equal to a class level?

Assuming you're talking about the monster level progressions that go from 1 to X (X = monster's starting ECL) featured in Savage Species... The level progressions break up the abilities, HD, level adjustments, etc. so that you can play a monster at an ECL lower than its normal starting ECL. I'm not sure what you mean by "equal" but an "8th level" mind flayer (using the SS level progression for mind flayers) has an ECL of 8.

2. Does the player in question simply advance in monster levels just like a PC of the same level?

Yes.

- Does the level adjustment come into play anywhere before 15th level or is it figured in?

It's already factored in - note the levels where the monster PC gains no HD, and the total number of those levels compared to the monster's normal level adjustment.

3. Does the mind flayer get new skills, feats and ability score increases based upon his hit dice or when he gains each monster level?

HD. This is spelled out in the level progression - it notes when you gain a feat and more skill points.

4. Based on the information above (the data not my questions) if my mind flayer PC has 66500 EXP to make him a 12th level

- What is his monster class level?

12.

- What is his character level? (The basis of his skill points, base saves, feats, ability score increases)

His total HD (don't have SS in front of me at the moment).

- What is his ECL right now? (Based upon the MIND FLAYER monster class on PG 185-86 of SS)

12.

- What is his class level?

Errr, in which class?

5. According to the MIND FLAYER monster class level breakdown in SS (PG 186) and the class abilities he gets SR equal to 10 + class level.

- What is the SR of my mind flayer PC?

22 I think. What's the SR of a normal mind flayer? It should be 25 from the sound of things.