D&D 5E The Lady of Pain - 18 Bladesinger/ 2 Fighter build

Renduaz · Sep 8, 2017

Rofel Wodring said:
Yes, they are. First of all, a big problem with your 'but what about the Shapechange and the Simulacrum!' argument: that stuff comes online at level 17, minimum, which is really level 19 for you. What about all of the other levels in between? Builds that take until 90% of the game is over are looked down upon for a reason, even if you're lucky enough to start there.

As far as pooh-poohing Contingency, you're really underestimating the goodness of that spell, especially at levels 11-14 when its ability to be cast in downtime makes your melee efficacy explode if you want. Even though I mercilessly criticize D&D for having much shorter workdays than the game expects, it's not an hour-long short. What are you doing those other 3 to 11 hours? What are you doing with that concentration slot in the meantime? I guess you're going to go back to using Haste or Greater Invis, but Contingency lets you fast-cast those spells. And even if you're not interesting in fast-casting another concentration spell, you still have a bunch of other fun options to play with: Blink, Mirror Image, Melf's Minute Meteors, Fire Shield, Dimension Door, Dispel Magic, and whatever comes out with Xanathar's Guide to Everything.

Long rest, or at least being able to replenish your spells from it, is always 8 hours. That got clarified.

You sure don't sound like you care about stuff because melee efficacy. Any Bladesinger who uses Simulacrum to boost their single-target DPR by 40-60 instead of doing something awesome like, I don't know, Banishing/Wall of Forcing three monsters while you spend the minute casting Symbol or forcing the monster to burn two Legendary Saves in the first round of combat with a double-Otto action has their priorities in the wrong order. Unless you're in a party that lacks martial muscle, DPR in any challenging fights should be a secondary concern for you. You should be worrying about establishing control, because that's what your spells are good at. I know it sucks as a gish to get dice envy when a Battlemaster / Paladin gets TWO crits on an eight-attack sequence, but you're just going to have to deal with it.

Again, what about the other seventeen levels?

Well, guess what. 5E D&D doesn't really do the 'single monster' trope for most challenging fights. Not that they don't exist, but 90% of the time if published content is anything to go by a hard fight will be something like 'you're level 10 and you're facing 10 ogres, 2 stone giants, 1 cloud giant, 2 hill giants, and 2 fire giants.' 10d8 Chain Lightning to four targets or 10d6 to 12 targets might make you feel small in the pants compared to a Flametongue Double-Attack + Haste + Melf's Minute Meteors, but those will win you the fight faster than pushing all of that onto one monster.

Yes, if you feel dice envy and feel like throwing down at full-force against six goblins, you're going to run out of resources in a typical work day as a Sorceradin. So what? What makes the Sorceradin good is that they have good (rather than average) round-to-round damage with minimal investment (which is not zero!) and they can throw down when it's time to throw down. Unless magical items are in play, it requires some careful, but not strict, budgeting but the results are amazing when you do it right. A Paladin 2 / Old Favored Soul Sorcerer 9 with GMW and a +2 Greatsword can for the cost of a Haste Spell, 2 Sorcery Points for Quicken, and 1 1st-level spell slots for smite can, if all of their attacks hit, do 8d6 (base) + 2d8 (smite) + 2d8 (Booming Blade) + 40 (GMW) + 8 (enhancement) + 16 (strength) = 94 damage for that round. Even more if we have Two-Handed Weapon fighting in play from the paladin. They definitely have simulacrum envy on Bladesinger wizards, but not because their damage can't keep up.

Action Surge isn't really all that great for Bladesingers, unless, again, magical items are in play. Mostly because the really great spells you'd want to cast in combat are concentration-based. It's best used to fast-cast buffs (which you have Contingency for), fast-cast concentration spells that require double actions like Sunbeam and Eyebite and Telekinesis, or to layer on a little extra pain. Unfortunately, concentration-less spells either tend to be higher level (Mass Suggestion, upcasted Bestow Curse) or instantaneous damage spells like fireball and lightning bolt. Looking at it that way, I'd consider it a fair tradeoff, though skewed slightly in favor of the extra spell slots unless you're using it in a way that wouldn't matter to your build. Using it to get in some more melee damage is, uh, kind of a waste of the ability. If I had shapechange up, I'd rather use it on, say, an extra ancient brass dragon's breath or a double-or-nothing on a Balor's summoning of 1d2 mariliths, personally.

Well, this is more of a question about delaying spell slot gains which come with any Spellcaster Multiclasser, rather than specific to the Fighter discussion, but there is an easy solution. The DPR increase of "Duelist" will mostly shine in the Marilith form, and if "Action Surge" is so unappealing, then you can just level up to 18 as a Bladesinger, with all the spell slots for your campaign, and then perhaps take Fighter. Again, this is a level 20 path, yes. There are many of those online which rely on the combination of high-level abilities with a multiclassing trick, so I'd say, if you're in a campaign in which it's unlikely you'll ever reach 20 or continue beyond it, or even get past mid-levels, then there is nothing to talk about and you should probably take another class completely, but this thread is just about Bladesingers, at max level. I have tons of other builds and tricks.

You'd be surprised at how many time and guides I've devoted to "control", this is in fact the first time I'm focusing on DPR. Contingency for a single free Haste instead of 2 turns is actually a bad use of Contingency, I'd use it for a Resilient Sphere or Dimension Door in the circumstance where I may be in danger.

I don't know what "clarification" you're speaking of but an Elf's racial Trance ability explicitly states it can gain the same benefits as that of another race in 8 hours, with only 4 hours. I can do everything you said in the post when circumstance calls for it as an 18th level Wizard, or I can do my melee DPR if I need to conserve slots for some reason or facing an enemy with Limited Magic Immunity or Resistances and what have you. I don't know what "Favored Soul" is, but I never player in sessions which allow UA, nor do I make builds for UA. I know for a fact that there are thousands of broken things you can do with the non-official ( For a reason, since it's unbalanced ) UA articles and classes and so on. And your Divine Smites run out in literally 2 turns for extra 4d8 damage.

As for Action Surge, that's part of the idea. I wrote "I can use action surge for other extreme melee nova" ( If I were fighting Tiamat for instance ) or for 2 spells in a row, or for triple the stuff you want to do with your contingency. I have great adaptability. And don't think that you are innovating anything to me when it comes to Contingency or other spells, nor when it comes to what can be done with proper control. Just to disillusion you from the notion that melee efficiacy is the only thing I can theorize about.

This is merely the best I could come up with for a Bladesinger with a target goal of high DPR and decent consistency, especially at max level.

Renduaz · Sep 8, 2017

Zene said:
Awesome topic, very interesting build. I really appreciate the notes on playstyle at different levels. Also appreciate the dialogue on the pros and cons with the other commenters. I just started leveling a bladesinger, and this gives me a lot to think about.

A couple things I noticed -- you mention taking a 4-hour trance long rest, then casting, then taking another 4-hour trance long rest. My understanding is that you can only take one long rest per 24 hours... but am I missing something? Also, in your highest-level routine, you mention shapechange, haste, and enlarge. That's 3 concentration spells, but with you and the simulacrum, there should only be 2. Again, unless I'm missing something.

I'm curious what you'd think about some slight modifications I'm considering to your base build:
1) Headband of Intellect instead of Int ASI's. So you're maxing out a +4 int instead of +5 (and totally missing out on the opportunity for +6 if a tome drops). You'd have -1 AC, -1 Concentration saves, -1 damage per melee hit at high levels, and -1 spell save DC/spell hit bonus. And you'd be giving up an attunement slot. In exchange, you'd free up 2 ASIs for feats, and a few attribute points you could put elsewhere.
2) Getting reincarnated as a human for the extra feat.
3) Instead of 2 levels in fighter for action surge, taking 1 level in rogue for expertise in Athletics; opening up some crazy shapechanged grappling options as a giant or dragon when you don't want to just DPR.

What do you think? Are any of these worth it to open up other options, if you're not super concerned about max DPR?

When and where? Latest Sage Advice column (just a few days old) says the opposite. Are you talking about a more recent clarification than that?

That's true about a Long Rest, I suppose then that we wouldn't be able to Wish for our Simulacrum on a daily basis, rather the first Simulacrum created prior to the last long rest ( Who has like 10+ slots for Hasting us and a 9th level slot for Shapechange ) will have to endure for the next 24 hours, but that should not be a problem ( With Spell Mastered Rope Trick if Hasting or at full Marilith health with Shapechange and then Hasting for the reminder ).

1.When it comes to magical items, there are many which could be of huge impact to builds, but it's generally considered an invitation for a berating to structure even the tiniest part of your class/build/methods around the possibility of acquiring any magical items, since "You suck Renduaz! This won't work because the DM is not obliged to give you anything, ANYTHING! YOU HEAR ME?", so generally everything I may post will always have to rely on my own character abilities. If you get access to magical items or think you might eventually, then feel free to change practically anything to your best judgement, since it's uncharted territory for me. Sure, you can do the Headband thing.

2. Is it even possible to reincarnate as "Human Variant" for a feat?

3. That's possible, though I find Action Surge more reliable as an ability.

Zene · Sep 8, 2017

I see that you've written a couple other guides on here. I just bookmarked them (Oz and Abusing Monsters) for later reading. The Abusing Monsters one looks particularly interesting, and seems like it'd combine very well with this build.

Any other guides/builds out there that you've written? I'd love to check them out.

Blue · Sep 8, 2017

Renduaz said:
And we can't use shortswords, because without "Dual Wielder", you can only make an attack as a bonus action with Two-Weapon Fighting if you're using Light weapons.

Except that shortswords are light weapons.

Renduaz said:
You don't need a hand for somatic components with War Caster... "You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands.", although War Caster in my build is really only here if you want to Counterspell and the like as a Marilith.

I mistyped, I meant you still need a hand free for spells with material components.

Rofel Wodring · Sep 10, 2017

Rendauz said:
gain, this is a level 20 path, yes. There are many of those online which rely on the combination of high-level abilities with a multiclassing trick, so I'd say, if you're in a campaign in which it's unlikely you'll ever reach 20 or continue beyond it, or even get past mid-levels, then there is nothing to talk about and you should probably take another class completely, but this thread is just about Bladesingers, at max level.

This is merely the best I could come up with for a Bladesinger with a target goal of high DPR and decent consistency, especially at max level.

Well, as long as you admit that your build only applies to a very narrow spectrum of the game (levels 19 and 20) and is being intentionally suboptimal for 'cool' points, I can live with that. High-level 5E D&D is super-easy, especially if you abuse Wish, Shapechange, and Simulacrum, so I say go for what makes you happy.

Renduaz · Sep 11, 2017

Zene said:
I see that you've written a couple other guides on here. I just bookmarked them (Oz and Abusing Monsters) for later reading. The Abusing Monsters one looks particularly interesting, and seems like it'd combine very well with this build.

Any other guides/builds out there that you've written? I'd love to check them out.

Oh thanks, well I can offer The Invincible Caster and my personaly cantrip uses as well as some personal spell favorites, hastily copypasted into text here.

Renduaz · Sep 11, 2017

Blue said:
Except that shortswords are light weapons.

I mistyped, I meant you still need a hand free for spells with material components.

Right, forgot about Shortswords.

Rofel Wodring said:
Well, as long as you admit that your build only applies to a very narrow spectrum of the game (levels 19 and 20) and is being intentionally suboptimal for 'cool' points, I can live with that. High-level 5E D&D is super-easy, especially if you abuse Wish, Shapechange, and Simulacrum, so I say go for what makes you happy.

It applies at it's best to a narrow sector, but I don't see why as a Bladesinger any other way would be far superior. It's not intentionally "sub-optimal" since it delivers the highest DPR and does not run out of Divine Smite in 2 turns and gives you a character which is both decent at melee and has all the powers of a full-fledged Wizard, but yeah, I don't know what else to say.

D&D 5E The Lady of Pain - 18 Bladesinger/ 2 Fighter build

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