D&D 5E Teleport /fly /misty step the bane of cool dungeon design is RAW in 5E

Hussar · Sep 25, 2017

I think you'd have a pretty hard time arguing that 1e is a Fantasy Supers game. Most of the classes got no magic at all before name level and most groups would only have two casters - a cleric and an MU. Looking at the cleric spell list in 1e, clerics aren't exactly super heroes and MU's had so few spells per day that you weren't hitting fantasy supers until quite high levels (say, about 7th plus).

And, as evidence, I'd point to the modules. A1-4 is hardly a supers module. Anything for lower than 5th level was pretty mundane. And, generally, you weren't hitting the really super hero type stuff until name level or higher.

Unless you consider ganking orcs something a supers game would do.

Valetudo · Sep 25, 2017

Hussar said:
Not really though. Most of these effects were limited to the wizard, once upon a time, and a fairly high level one at that. Once upon a time, clerics got virtually no travel effects (Word of Recall being about the only one) and druids didn't get very many and then, pretty limited use ones (the only flying effect, other than shape change of course, that druids got was Chariots of Susstarre and that was a very high level spell).

What has changed now in 5e is that it's not unusual to have 80% of the PC's spell capable. Instead of having two spell capable PC's in the group (the cleric and the MU, one of which had no travel spells), you now have entire groups which are spell capable, and many of the spells lists have travel spells.

Basically, these spells which negate skill checks, have become so common in groups that there is little to no actual resource cost to use them. It's all part and parcel to 5e D&D being such a very, very high magic game. For DM's like me, who prefer a much lower magic game, it makes the base game somewhat problematic.

I, personally, just don't like it when the caster (which is now pretty much anyone in the group) plays the magical trump card over every obstacle. Because it becomes cyclical. You put in obstacles in the adventure, the players trump with magic, the first reaction is for every player to look at their spell list to see how they can overcome this obstacle instead of actually doing any interacting with the setting itself. And, because they do overcome obstacles this way, the DM stops putting in the obstacles, because, well, what's the point if they're just going to skip them anyway?

You are ignoring low level spells like jump, spiderclimb, featherfall , and levitate. Bards also got these spells since 2nd edition, and multiclassing MUs was super common. Fly is and always has been a 3rd lvl spell so 5th lvl, not high lvl. Thats when the game really starts to getting rolling. 30 plus years. Thats how long these issues have been around. Get good son.

Lanefan · Sep 25, 2017

Hussar said:
Not really though. Most of these effects were limited to the wizard, once upon a time, and a fairly high level one at that. Once upon a time, clerics got virtually no travel effects (Word of Recall being about the only one) and druids didn't get very many and then, pretty limited use ones (the only flying effect, other than shape change of course, that druids got was Chariots of Susstarre and that was a very high level spell).

Clerics also had Plane Shift, which when cast twice (once to another safe plane then again to get back to wherever you want to go on this plane) is a very safe and efficient means of travel for up to 7 people - it's one I did end up having to nerf as it became somewhat broken.

Druids got - I forget the name of the spell but it allowed them to step into one tree and step out of another one somewhere else. Couldn't take anyone else along, though.

What has changed now in 5e is that it's not unusual to have 80% of the PC's spell capable. Instead of having two spell capable PC's in the group (the cleric and the MU, one of which had no travel spells), you now have entire groups which are spell capable, and many of the spells lists have travel spells.

This is a much bigger issue, yes. Hard to fix without just flat-out banning some classes and butchering others, or going to a different system/edition.

DeJoker said:
But ARE playing a supers game for that is what DnD has been from get go, basically a game of superheroes set in a fantasy past setting.

To a limited point, perhaps.

Old school D&D saw PCs eventually either become superheroes or die trying, but they certainly weren't supers right from day 1. That came later, starting a bit with 3e and really going off in 4e where a 1st level character was so far removed from a commoner that it might as well be called a superhero right away.

Lan-"hey, who you callin' a superhero?!"-efan

Coroc · Sep 25, 2017

@ DeJoker Post #200

Sorry cannot cite on this machine,

I like your reasoning although it is not my Point of view but on your superheroes Argument:

I have seen D&D many ways, but never in being comparable to a marvel universe.

True you got the different Superheroes each with his unique powers and D&D classes on the other Hand.

But more often than not the PCs have to start out small, in some very very good campaigns that stays this way even if they achieve epic levels (Check out Shemeskas planescape story hour for a good example of such a campaign)

So your sorcerer can fly like superman because of magic? The city guard Areal patrol on their griffon mounts who chase him, while spiking him with arrows to make him loose concentration can fly too. Where is your superhero?

By RAW and if the DM allows it for his campaign the arcane casting classes can get access to any spell. So every other sorcerer wants a fly spell. Maybe many npc casters have it too? Now that is a lot of superheroes.

DeJoker · Sep 25, 2017

Coroc said:
By RAW and if the DM allows it for his campaign the arcane casting classes can get access to any spell. So every other sorcerer wants a fly spell. Maybe many npc casters have it too? Now that is a lot of superheroes.

Well not really, because technically even in a magic rich world the number of sorcerers and such are a fairly small percentage of the population even if you go with the Forgotten Realms before the fall of magic when just about everyone could use magic to some degree and they had huge floating cities. Further as you point out there are numerous other means of flying that can be had besides the ability to personally fly and that goes all the way back to 1st Ed and even if you do not have a "fly" spell (3rd level spell) if you got the ability to polymorph self (4th level spell) or shape change (druid ability) you not only had access to the ability to fly but a whole lot more.

Yes there are certain degrees of difference to how a pure superhero game is often run as opposed to a pure D&D one but that often has a lot to do with the campaign being run. I have seen superhero campaigns where you started out as a normal and slowly grew into your powers and I have seen D&D games that started you out at 10th level. So the key is to look at what can be done with the basic guidelines without making any real mechanical changes while not pigeon holing into only being run one particular way.

Lastly again having the ability to fly, shadow-step, ethereal walk, etc... is not the bane of any game it is simply a slightly different differential that needs to be accounted for when planning out adventures.

Hussar · Sep 26, 2017

I'd argue that it's more than "slightly" when 3/4 of the PC's can do it repeatedly, by very early levels.

Greg Benage · Sep 26, 2017

Valetudo said:
You are ignoring low level spells like jump, spiderclimb, featherfall , and levitate. Bards also got these spells since 2nd edition, and multiclassing MUs was super common. Fly is and always has been a 3rd lvl spell so 5th lvl, not high lvl. Thats when the game really starts to getting rolling. 30 plus years. Thats how long these issues have been around. Get good son.

In B/X, a 5th-level magic-user has accumulated 20,000 experience points. His spell slots are 2/2/1. So yes, he can cast fly once per day if he memorizes it. He has ~13 hit points, so he'd better be careful where he flies.

At max level (14th/1,050,000 XP), he can cast 6th-level spells, and there's no contingency or clone or anything like that to bail him out. He's got about 28 hit points now. A 10 HD red dragon will breathe for 45 and claw/claw/bite for 1d8/1d8/4d8. He's also got spell slots, so maybe he casts dispel magic on the hapless M-U.

The Classic D&D magic-user ain't no superhero.

There's really no comparison at all, to the extent I'm surprised folks are trying to make the argument.

DeJoker · Sep 26, 2017

Hussar said:
I'd argue that it's more than "slightly" when 3/4 of the PC's can do it repeatedly, by very early levels.

But by definition PCs are not all that common when compared to the general populace. Yes perhaps the really small number of PCs has a high percentage but that is a very small percentage when dropping them into the overall general populace not including all the various non-magical monsters out there as well.

This is what I was talking about by a small percentage. Besides PCs are supposed to be a bit unique and/or a grade above the regular folks out there. So unless you sit down and actually state out how many of the various classes exist in your world that are of an appropriate level to perform one of these horrible movement abilities and you make them fairly common at least 30% or more of the over all population -- they are not going to be considered anything but uncommon within the world. Many folks seem to over look this item when making such comparisons and on that small of a scale does it really make all that big of a difference?

Oh and I am not comparing the hard crunchy numbers I have been pretty much comparing overall concepts of style and aesthetics because the crunchy bits have a very minor roll in how strong or not strong something appears to be within a campaign while its the overall concept and style that makes the major difference at list when I am running the game because depending on how you address these two latter items dictates how powerful or not powerful something ends up being and I am a strong proponent of game balance.

Hussar · Sep 26, 2017

But, there is a fair distance between "supposed to be a bit unique and/or a grade above the regular folks out there" and a fantasy supers. I prefer the "bit unique" rather than Justice League. Less Harry Potterverse and more Game of Thrones.

Lanefan · Sep 26, 2017

DeJoker said:
But by definition PCs are not all that common when compared to the general populace.

Careful here.

In some games a large proportion of the general population may have the potential for advancement (i.e. are just like PCs but may or may not have actually ever gained any levels).

Also, we've been talking about Humans only thus far; though everything said could likely just as well apply to Hobbits. But what about Elves, whose very existence is based on magic; or Dwarves, whose very existence either is or should be based on fighting? For those two races I'd say it would be a rare individual indeed who didn't at least have level-gaining potential just like a PC does.

This is what I was talking about by a small percentage. Besides PCs are supposed to be a bit unique and/or a grade above the regular folks out there. So unless you sit down and actually state out how many of the various classes exist in your world that are of an appropriate level to perform one of these horrible movement abilities and you make them fairly common at least 30% or more of the over all population -- they are not going to be considered anything but uncommon within the world. Many folks seem to over look this item when making such comparisons and on that small of a scale does it really make all that big of a difference?

From the perspective from which we are probably all speaking, yes it does; because here we're speaking as DMs and dungeon designers. It matters not to the average DM how many commoners can fly or teleport (though such things are certainly worth 30 seconds of thought during one's worldbuilding - are there permanent teleport networks between major cities, for example; and if yes then can low-level PCs use them for a fee?) but how many PCs can do such things in the field and at what level and with what frequency.

Even if only 0.01% of the game-world population can hard-cast fly or teleport or dimension door or misty step or whatever, if that 0.01% are all PCs that I have to DM then these things potentially become a front-and-center headache because within the game at the table long-range travel is a simple fact of life.

Lan-"now you see me over here, now you see me over there"-efan

D&D 5E Teleport /fly /misty step the bane of cool dungeon design is RAW in 5E

Hussar

Legend

Valetudo

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Lanefan

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Coroc

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DeJoker

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Hussar

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Greg Benage

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DeJoker

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Hussar

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Lanefan

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