D&D 5E Noticing a minor illusion as threat

Rya.Reisender · Sep 19, 2017

I'm wondering, let's say a group hunts an adventurer. He then creates a minor illusion of himself and hides. The group notices the minor illusion and immediately wants to attack it. Are they still surprised because a minor illusion is not a threat that can be noticed or are they not surprised because they obviously think they have noticed a threat?

iserith · Sep 19, 2017

To me, adjudication of this scenario would hinge on what the player described as his or her goal when establishing the approach. What is the player hoping to accomplish here? It's not entirely clear. The answer should indicate what the DM should do in my view.

DEFCON 1 · Sep 19, 2017

Easiest way to answer this is to tweak the question:

- If the first PC is trying to hide (not very well) and the group of enemies notices him and moves forward to engage... then another PC jumps up to attack the group from hiding, is the group surprised?

I think most of us would probably answer 'No'. Once the group saw the PC (through Passive Perception or whatever), then initiative would be rolled. And in the first round of battle, it's only those creatures that did not see a threat at all that are Surprised for that first round. It doesn't matter if a creature can see ALL the threats, they only need to see one to not be considered Surprised.

The Minor illusion scenario is the same exact thing. As far as the group is concerned, the illusory PC is a threat and they move to attack it, with everyone rolling initiative. Since they noticed what they thought was a threat, they get to act in that first round of combat. As of course does the real PC, because he also noticed the threat-- the group approaching the illusion. So neither the group nor the PC are surprised, and thus they both get to act in the first round. And just to add to that... the real PC that was hiding does get to make his attack with Advantage because he was successfully hiding from the group.

So the Minor Illusion trick is actually not that worthwhile if the PC is trying to gain Surprise. He really should just Hide and hope his DEX (Stealth) check is higher than the group's Passive Perception. The real reason to use the Minor Illusion trick would be to draw the group away from some location, as they would obviously move to where the illusion was (until of course they discovered the illusion and came running back.)

Gadget · Sep 21, 2017

Well, first of all Minor Illusion can only be used to create a stationary object, not a creature. Second of all..that kind of ends the scenario.

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Harzel · Sep 21, 2017

Gadget said:
Well, first of all Minor Illusion can only be used to create a stationary object, not a creature. Second of all..that kind of ends the scenario.

Hmm. I always assumed the 'object' could be the (immobile) image of a creature.

Rya.Reisender · Sep 21, 2017

Yes, I think an immobile image of a creature works. The player specifically stated in this case it's with the back to the approaching enemies, so they wouldn't really notice it until they get close, I'd say.

I actually like DEFCON's reasoning. So the enemies are not surprised. In fact they probably start combat first to attack the illusion.

The only weird thing here is that when they roll higher initiative they probably waste their action on attacking the illusion, so being faster is actually a penalty.

Gadget · Sep 21, 2017

Harzel said:
Hmm. I always assumed the 'object' could be the (immobile) image of a creature.

That's what silent image is for, plus you get mobility. An object and a creature are different things in the rules.

jaelis · Sep 21, 2017

Rya.Reisender said:
I'm wondering, let's say a group hunts an adventurer. He then creates a minor illusion of himself and hides. The group notices the minor illusion and immediately wants to attack it. Are they still surprised because a minor illusion is not a threat that can be noticed or are they not surprised because they obviously think they have noticed a threat?

No surprise IMO. If they decide to attack the illusion, everyone would roll initiative and combat would start. Once that happens there isn't any more opportunity to get surprise.

(Though I would agree that minor illusion wouldn't able to make a convincing illusion of a creature.)

Hriston · Sep 21, 2017

I think the illusion is a red herring in considering whether the group is surprised. Let's say the adventurer has cast silent image, creating an illusion of himself which his pursuers have then come upon. What happens next? Does the pursuing party attack the illusion, revealing it to be an illusion by so interacting with it? Does the adventurer attack the pursuing party? The question about surprise seems to imply he does. If so, I'd say the group is surprised because the adventurer went unnoticed before the attack, and the thing the group noticed wasn't a threat at all, but merely an illusion.

Harzel · Sep 24, 2017

Gadget said:
That's what silent image is for, plus you get mobility. An object and a creature are different things in the rules.

Um, alright, then, I will create the image of a highly detailed, lifelike, life-sized, expertly painted statue of the creature. Provided that this doesn't violate the size constraint (5 ft cube), what is the practical difference?