D&D 5E Is Dying really hard?

Oofta · Jul 19, 2018

Caliban said:
How many people and creatures in the campaign world have access to the same healing abilities as the PC's?

In most settings the PC's are very much the exception, most creatures don't have such ready access to potions, healing spells, and other in-combat healing abilities (or really most of the abilities that PC's display).

YMMV, depending on how the campaign is set up.

I think the default assumption is that at least some magical healing is fairly normal. Healing potions are too expensive for most people, but they are common and listed as easily purchased equipment.

In any case, even in modern warfare special forces are taught to triple tap with two to the chest and one to the head.

Caliban · Jul 19, 2018

Oofta said:
I think the default assumption is that at least some magical healing is fairly normal. Healing potions are too expensive for most people, but they are common and listed as easily purchased equipment.

These two statements seem contradictory to me. "Healing is fairly normal, but too expensive for most people." - that means it's not normal for most people. For most people healing potions are like an emergency room - yes it exists, but not something everyone has easily available. PC's are the rich guys with the premium health insurance (i.e. a cleric who doesn't charge for healing).

In most of the published adventures and hardcovers - the monsters and bad guys don't have healing spells and potions in their stat block. A few do, but most do not.

Under the assumption that they are not fighting PC Adventurer's 100% of the time, but rather mostly fighting other creatures of similar ability - they usually wouldn't have to deal with opponents who can easily heal during a fight.

In any case, even in modern warfare special forces are taught to triple tap with two to the chest and one to the head.

And most of the creatures you fight are not "modern warfare special forces".

PC's are an exception, assuming everyone else has the same options and abilities leads to a skewed view of the world.

For home campaigns, adjust this to whatever makes sense for you (I certainly do). I'm just saying that this seems to be the default assumption in the rules and published adventures.

Oofta · Jul 19, 2018

Caliban said:
These two statements seem contradictory to me. "Healing is fairly normal, but too expensive for most people." - that means it's not normal for most people. For most people healing potions are like an emergency room - yes it exists, but not something everyone has easily available. PC's are the rich guys with the premium health insurance (i.e. a cleric who doesn't charge for healing).

In most of the published adventures and hardcovers - the monsters and bad guys don't have healing spells and potions in their stat block. A few do, but most do not.

Under the assumption that they are not fighting PC Adventurer's 100% of the time, but rather mostly fighting other creatures of similar ability - they usually wouldn't have to deal with opponents who can easily heal during a fight.

And most of the creatures you fight are not "modern warfare special forces".

PC's are an exception, assuming everyone else has the same options and abilities leads to a skewed view of the world.

For home campaigns, adjust this to whatever makes sense for you (I certainly do). I'm just saying that this seems to be the default assumption in the rules and published adventures.

I guess I always viewed campaign worlds like The Forgotten Realms as being high magic where everyone knows healing magic exists whether or not they have access to it. Besides, the monsters / NPCs the adventurers face at higher level are pretty wealthy themselves. Or do your PCs only fight the minimum wage guards that don't have a union contract that gives them healing potions? They never fight your world's version of special forces?

In any case, i mostly run a home campaign so my campaign world may well be and aberration. While opponents getting healed mid-fight is somewhat rare because the action economy doesn't work out, intelligent opponents certainly know magic healing is a possibility. I also give NPCs equipment (including healing potions) not listed in the MM entry if it makes sense.

Do what makes sense for your campaigns of course.

Caliban · Jul 19, 2018

Oofta said:
I guess I always viewed campaign worlds like The Forgotten Realms as being high magic where everyone knows healing magic exists whether or not they have access to it.

Knowing it exists and assuming that these strangers you have just encountered and are currently fighting will have this expensive healing magic that is out of the range of most people and start double-tapping anyone who goes down...seems a bit of a stretch for most monsters. Goblins, orcs, kobolds, giants, common bandits and ruffians - etc - they aren't known for their keen situational awareness.

90% of the people PC's fight tend not to live long enough to tell anyone else about them and their abilities. High levels changes things (they change everything), but I didn't think we were talking about world famous adventurers here. I'm talking about levels 1 thru 10, mainly. You know, the levels most of the published adventures cover.

Besides, the monsters / NPCs the adventurers face at higher level are pretty wealthy themselves. Or do your PCs only fight the minimum wage guards that don't have a union contract that gives them healing potions? They never fight your world's version of special forces?

Yes, when I said "most of the creatures you fight are not modern warfare special forces", I of course meant "you will never fight them, ever". That what "most" means, after all. :hmm:

I talk about a baseline D&D and you immediately jump to a special case as if that was a valid counter. (i.e. fighting special forces instead of standard thugs, monsters, or guards without exceptional training.)

In any case, i mostly run a home campaign so my campaign world may well be and aberration. While opponents getting healed mid-fight is somewhat rare because the action economy doesn't work out, intelligent opponents certainly know magic healing is a possibility. I also give NPCs equipment (including healing potions) not listed in the MM entry if it makes sense.

Do what makes sense for your campaigns of course.

So you can agree your assumptions might not hold true for baseline D&D - because you are adding extra healing for the bad guys in your game, therefore it's more common than in baseline D&D.

jasper · Jul 19, 2018

...I guess I always viewed campaign worlds like The Forgotten Realms as being high magic where everyone knows healing magic exists whether or not they have access to it....
Hell no we won't go! healing potions for all!
Hell no we won't go! healing potions for all!
Hell no we won't go! healing potions for all!
jasper "If I am elected healing potions will be in every home! I will tax adventurers to do it. "

Oofta · Jul 19, 2018

Caliban said:
Knowing it exists and assuming that these strangers you have just encountered and are currently fighting will have this expensive healing magic that is out of the range of most people and start double-tapping anyone who goes down...seems a bit of a stretch for most monsters. Goblins, orcs, kobolds, giants, common bandits and ruffians - etc - they aren't known for their keen situational awareness.

90% of the people PC's fight tend not to live long enough to tell anyone else about them and their abilities. High levels changes things (they change everything), but I didn't think we were talking about world famous adventurers here. I'm talking about levels 1 thru 10, mainly. You know, the levels most of the published adventures cover.

Yes, when I said "most of the creatures you fight are not modern warfare special forces", I of course meant "you will never fight them, ever". That what "most" means, after all.

I talk about a baseline D&D and you immediately jump to a special case as if that was a valid counter. (i.e. fighting special forces instead of standard thugs, monsters, or guards without exceptional training.)

So you can agree your assumptions might not hold true for baseline D&D - because you are adding extra healing for the bad guys in your game, therefore it's more common than in baseline D&D.

The list of enemies that would double tap in my world (especially at lower levels) is pretty small. Some animals may do it just because their prey is still twitching, but that's another story and very dependent on how risky the group wants combat to be which is something we discuss in our session 0.

The monsters/NPCs that are going to double tap is going to skew to higher level threats, and situations where the party's reputation precedes them. For example, in a recent campaign, the adventurers were part of a strike force. After a while there were wanted posters and a bounty on their head, along with information on tactics, etc. So even those low level hobgoblins trying to get that big score knew to double tap.

But yeah, magic is pretty ubiquitous in my world. It's just not usually the insta-heal options that PCs have.

Which is a really long, really drawn out way of saying that it's all campaign dependent. I always thought of FR as being high enough magic that the moment someone sees a spell-caster invoking a deity in the party they're going to assume the cleric can heal. That won't be true in all campaigns and may not be true in modules.

psychophipps · Jul 19, 2018

Considering how many homicides end with "stabbed 20+ times", the idea of a truly feral enemy like a gnoll or a troll simply turning away from a foe because they fell unconscious "because tactics" doesn't hold too much water in my glass.

Dausuul · Jul 19, 2018

I pretty much never see PCs double-tapping their enemies; it's a poor tactic, since monsters and NPCs rarely have healing, and it costs an attack that could have been aimed at an active foe. So I figure their enemies aren't likely to double-tap PCs... mostly. Exceptions:

If an intelligent enemy has seen a fallen PC get healed and jump back in the fight, they will start to double-tap. Also, they'll target the cleric.
If the enemy knows the PCs have access to in-combat healing, they may double-tap pre-emptively.
Some monsters are more interested in slaughter than in tactical precision. These foes may jump on fallen enemies and rip their throats out. Use this very sparingly, since it can come across as spiteful from the DM... but the level of fear and hatred it inspires in the players is something to see.

To the OP, lack of healing in the party makes a big difference. Any semi-competent healer will keep tabs on downed PCs and get them back up before they're in danger of death. Letting someone bleed out without intervening is clerical malpractice.

But if there is no healer, and no one has a good Medicine skill or a healing potion - meaning it's apt to take multiple actions to stabilize a dying PC - it's another matter. My hexblade died last week in a battle against a swarm of ghouls and gnolls. When I went down, there was a brief debate over whether to try and heal me; but the party was on the ropes and everyone (including me) agreed it was more important to avert a TPK, and I would just have to take my chances. I then proceeded to blow three death saves in a row, one-two-three, and that was that.

Tony Vargas · Jul 19, 2018

psychophipps said:
Considering how many homicides end with "stabbed 20+ times", the idea of a truly feral enemy like a gnoll or a troll simply turning away from a foe because they fell unconscious "because tactics" doesn't hold too much water in my glass.

Yep. Healing a downed ally should be a thing for all the obvious reasons, but attacking the monster trying to eat (or just mutilate for fun) your downed ally, to get it away from him, seems like a thing that should be, too.

Caliban said:
These two statements seem contradictory to me. "Healing is fairly normal, but too expensive for most people." - that means it's not normal for most people.

Like first world Health Care, yeah.

Under the assumption that they are not fighting PC Adventurer's 100% of the time, but rather mostly fighting other creatures of similar ability - they usually wouldn't have to deal with opponents who can easily heal during a fight. PC's are an exception, assuming everyone else has the same options and abilities leads to a skewed view of the world.

So oft-overlooked a point!

However, the game's traditional zero-to-hero leveling dynamic & low-level lethality do create an impression that there's /lots/ of hero-track zeros out there.

Caliban · Jul 19, 2018

psychophipps said:
Considering how many homicides end with "stabbed 20+ times", the idea of a truly feral enemy like a gnoll or a troll simply turning away from a foe because they fell unconscious "because tactics" doesn't hold too much water in my glass.

Most homicides don't have 4-6 other people standing around ready to attack you after you drop one person. Most homicides are 1-on-1 and the "stabbed 20+ times" generally means someone raged out on a person they had personal issues with.

But yeah, if a gnoll or a troll catches someone alone, they very well might make sure to finish them off (or pull an arm off to chew on in the case of the troll) - there is no immediate threat they have to deal with.

It's not "tactics" - it's basic self preservation. You have a group of enemies, one down means you deal with the next threat, not play with the (probably) dead guy.

If the DM deems it reasonable that the bad guys would expect in-combat healing (or having just witnessed it happen last round), then sure. Make sure the downed guy stays down.

I'm just saying that in baseline D&D as presented in the modules and hardcover adventures I'm aware of - that's very much not a normal thing. PC's are an exception. Exceptional monsters are also an exception. I'm just referring to run-of-the-mill opponents, not exceptions.

D&D 5E Is Dying really hard?

Oofta

Legend

Caliban

Rules Monkey

Oofta

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Caliban

Rules Monkey

jasper

Rotten DM

Oofta

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psychophipps

Explorer

Dausuul

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Tony Vargas

Legend

Caliban

Rules Monkey

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