D&D 5E Kenku - Poorly thought out race no matter how cool

GlassJaw · Mar 5, 2019

pukunui said:
Exactly. That whole PC races section in Volo’s is a pretty big mess. Given that the draft version and the published version are virtually identical, I’m fairly certain the designers made no attempt to revise/balance those races. It was 5e’s first sour note for me (and unfortunately it wasn’t the last).

"Big mess" is a bit strong but I would agree that the balance and mechanics of the Volo races are a bit scattered. They definitely needed some fine-tuning before release. There is definitely some cool stuff in there though and a few tweaks here and there go a long way.

pukunui · Mar 6, 2019

GlassJaw said:
They definitely needed some fine-tuning before release. There is definitely some cool stuff in there though and a few tweaks here and there go a long way.

Which is why it’s so disappointing and frustrating that, despite having asked for feedback from the playtest crew, the devs deemed them all good enough to publish as-is. Slapping a “these races may not be balanced; ask your DM for permission” tag on them was such a cop-out.

practicalm · Mar 6, 2019

pukunui said:
I would argue that, in order to be able to read, they would need to know what the words they are reading sound like, so they ought to be able to say them out loud. They're just copying what someone else has written, after all. It might come out sounding like one of those early text-to-speech computer programs, but I'd say they'd be able to do it, since it doesn't involve any original thought on their part.

To be honest, it's that last part that I can't get my head around. How do you roleplay something that's incapable of thinking for itself? And what exactly does that mean anyway?

As someone who worked with deaf children, learning to read does not require you to know the sounds.

pukunui · Mar 6, 2019

practicalm said:
As someone who worked with deaf children, learning to read does not require you to know the sounds.

OK.

GlassJaw · Mar 6, 2019

pukunui said:
Which is why it’s so disappointing and frustrating that, despite having asked for feedback from the playtest crew, the devs deemed them all good enough to publish as-is. Slapping a “these races may not be balanced; ask your DM for permission” tag on them was such a cop-out.

Balance aside, I don't have too many mechanical issues with races. What would you change to fix or improve them?

Larrin · Mar 6, 2019

I really think the mistake is seeing mimicry as a limitation, rather than a cool flavor. I've heard of DMs insisting that kenku can only use phrases heard _that_ session. Bad form. Kenku speak using phrases they've already heard. That shouldn't be a super hard limit because by the time someone is even just a teen, they've heard thousands of phrases. Do you think they hatch from the egg and wear earmuff the first X years of life? Do you think kenku don't talk to each other? I bet they pass down phrases from mother to child, friend to friend, master to apprentice. An uncle has a great joke that he heard a halfling tell, and now everyone in the family can do it perfectly. The mother kenku's ability to scold has been in the family a hundred years, supposedly from phrases originally heard form a green hag. Highly specific phrases may be a pinch, but you can be creative with that. Otherwise, they can same most anything because most anything has probably been said around them at one time or another. How, not if, they say it, that's where mimicry should come in. Do you say "no" like an angry orc, or like a stern Nanny. Do you have a collection of 20 "no" voices that you use to fit the situation. Mimicry should be an opportunity, not a shackle.

Argyle King · Mar 6, 2019

pukunui said:
OK.

practicalm said:
As someone who worked with deaf children, learning to read does not require you to know the sounds.

For what it's worth, I'll also add that I can more-or-less read German well-enough to get by when need be despite my ability to properly speak and hear it being rather terrible.

Eltab · Mar 7, 2019

GlassJaw said:
Balance aside, I don't have too many mechanical issues with races. What would you change to fix or improve them?

I don't have a copy of Xanathar nearby, but the mechanical problem that stuck out to me was the -2 attribute (STR?) penalty on Kobolds. If you want to indicate that the average Kobold is physically weaker than the average -anything else-, cap their STR: the best you can create at chargen, which is lower than 20. This way a player is not sabotaged if they decide that their Kobold is that rare fellow who DID spend all his spare time working out at the gym.

Beleriphon · Mar 7, 2019

Larrin said:
I really think the mistake is seeing mimicry as a limitation, rather than a cool flavor. I've heard of DMs insisting that kenku can only use phrases heard _that_ session. Bad form. Kenku speak using phrases they've already heard. That shouldn't be a super hard limit because by the time someone is even just a teen, they've heard thousands of phrases. Do you think they hatch from the egg and wear earmuff the first X years of life? Do you think kenku don't talk to each other? I bet they pass down phrases from mother to child, friend to friend, master to apprentice. An uncle has a great joke that he heard a halfling tell, and now everyone in the family can do it perfectly. The mother kenku's ability to scold has been in the family a hundred years, supposedly from phrases originally heard form a green hag. Highly specific phrases may be a pinch, but you can be creative with that. Otherwise, they can same most anything because most anything has probably been said around them at one time or another. How, not if, they say it, that's where mimicry should come in. Do you say "no" like an angry orc, or like a stern Nanny. Do you have a collection of 20 "no" voices that you use to fit the situation. Mimicry should be an opportunity, not a shackle.

I like this. I took Kenku as stringing together whole phrases they've already heard at some point to express themselves. Again very akin to Bumblebee from the first Transformers movie. Bumblebee switches full phrases several times to express a complete thought. I like the idea that a Kenku will use a dozen different "No" words to express a negative, each in a different voice depending on the situation. A bored whiny child's "Noooooooooooooooo" when they're expressing displeasure, a screaming "No!" with a hammer striking a shield when they are extremely distressed, or anything else.

I'd personally be wary of stringing words from individual phrases together to represent a full new sentence. That to me falls into not able to create new ideas, rather than using another's voice and expression to express themselves.

Also, don't forget that it isn't just words, is sounds. A kenku can make any sound, rustling leaves to express contentment maybe, or thunder to show they're angry.

I think the important thing is that they can't say "I'm bored, lets play checkers." Even if they have heard each word individually, they are in capable of putting those words together in new ways that they haven't heard. Instead they have to say "I'm bored grandma." in the voice of a child they heard to express the same sentiment. They can use any sounds they have heard to express themselves, but they have to use the entire sound sequence.