Feats - Improved!

Stalker0 · Oct 17, 2017

ro said:
In my opinion HP is less important than Con save bonuses for Concentration-favoring spellcasters, even while gaining HP is a very valuable thing. That +1 Con save easily outpaces the value of Durable.

And for those characters they have War Caster or just a +2 Con. Toughness is not the feat for them....and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But for everyone else, 2 HP per level is too much.

I feel like characters should be able to excel at their niche skills. I don't think a Rogue or Bard should be strictly better than all Wizards at Arcana, for example. I'm ok with them being phenomenal at a whole bunch of skills, but being strictly the best at every skill they try seems out of place to me. That's why I favored giving access to advantage or expertise in this feat.

I think this is where you have to decide if you are making this list for you, or for a general audience. Core 5e says that Rogues and Bards are the skill masters, and are in fact better than all Wizards at Arcana. Now if you want to change that for your game that is fair game, but there are those in the general audience that see no need to remove niche protection. Certain classes are just good at certain things, and a single feat should not undo that.

Now I think you have some leverage with your specialized feats...because the whole point of the feat is to make you very good at a very specific thing. I think most people will get behind that. But giving away what is effectively a key class ability only a general feat I think is pushing it too far.

ro · Oct 17, 2017

Stalker0 said:
And for those characters they have War Caster or just a +2 Con. Toughness is not the feat for them....and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But for everyone else, 2 HP per level is too much.

If Durable is not added to Tough, what could be done with Durable to improve it?

I think this is where you have to decide if you are making this list for you, or for a general audience. Core 5e says that Rogues and Bards are the skill masters, and are in fact better than all Wizards at Arcana. Now if you want to change that for your game that is fair game, but there are those in the general audience that see no need to remove niche protection. Certain classes are just good at certain things, and a single feat should not undo that.

Now I think you have some leverage with your specialized feats...because the whole point of the feat is to make you very good at a very specific thing. I think most people will get behind that. But giving away what is effectively a key class ability only a general feat I think is pushing it too far.

You're right. It may be something I disagree with the game about, but for a general feat, I should keep it general.

ro · Oct 17, 2017

Stalker0 said:
Thought I would take a try at tidying this feat up a bit. I also think some of the abilities are a little extraneous, so I tried to condense it a bit. I felt that the encumbrance stuff is already factored in to a +2 str, no need to add on to that in this feat.

Athlete
1) You gain proficiency in the Athletics or Acrobatics skill.
2) Climbing and Swimming do not require extra movement.
3) All of your jumps are running jumps. Standing from prone only requires 5 ft of movement.
4) When you would gain a level of exhaustion or suffer HP loss due to suffocation, you may choose not to. You regain this ability after a long rest.

Though the encumbrance stuff is benefited by +2 Str, I was thinking this feat would be good for both Str and Dex characters (Athletics and Acrobatics). Those benefits are secondary benefits that most players wouldn't take a +2 ASI to get. Many of the benefits this feat gives are situational, whereas the armor benefit would be always-on, which I like. I especially like your shortening of the hold breath and exhaustion features.

How about this version?

Athlete
- You gain proficiency in the Athletics or Acrobatics skill.
- Climbing and swimming don't cost you extra movement.
- You can make a running jump after moving only 5 feet. Standing up from prone also only requires 5 feet of movement.
- When you would gain a level of exhaustion or suffer HP loss due to suffocation, you may choose not to. You regain this ability after a long rest.
- You decrease the Strength requirements of heavy armor by 2.
- You can fall an extra 10 feet without taking damage.

clearstream · Oct 18, 2017

Stalker0 said:
So with that in mind, I think you could rule 2 HP per level as +3 Con. Its not quite as strong as a full +4 Con...but its close. So the feat by ASI math is too strong.

Tough (with 2HP/Lvl) is nearly spot on in terms of balance with an ASI. Only slightly underpowered. The reasoning is this

If I take +2 Con, I will gain +1 to save (31% of all saves in PHB and MM), 1HP/level, days without food, roll versus thirst, minutes holding breath.
If I take Resilience for Con, I will gain +1 Con (1/2 ASI), and proficiency to Con saves

Together, those tell us the value of a Constitution ASI

+2 Con = 1 Con ASI
+1 Con = 1/2 ASI
+1HP/Lvl = 1/2 ASI
+Prof to Con save = 1/2 ASI
+1 Con save = ~1/4 ASI (because proficiency for most of an adventurer's career is worth +3 to +5)
+days without food, roll versus thirst, minutes holding breath = 1/4 ASI (perforce, because +2 Constitution must worth 1 Con ASI)

So we know that

+1HP/Lvl = +1 Con save +days without food etc

Therefore, when we forego those things by taking Tough instead, we gain +2HP/Lvl. It's practically the most balanced feat in the game.

clearstream · Oct 18, 2017

ro said:
If Durable is not added to Tough, what could be done with Durable to improve it?

Noting (in my above post) that I would strongly argue that Tough must be 2HP/Lvl, yes, I agree this creates a question for Durable.

One option is to observe that Durable is worth practically nothing, so to avoid it being a trap feat it is safe enough to add to Tough. I doubt it makes Tough OP to do that. Another could be to allow the spending of HD during combat, instead of only in rests. Maybe to mitigate incoming damage, as a kind of desperate effort.

[Edit: It occurs to me that Tough has to stack up against other feats, as well as against an ASI. Against other feats, adding Durable to Tough is perfectly defensible. Buffs it slightly to make it a valid pick with respect to other feats. Does it mean you never pick +2 Con? Not sure, what do you think?]

ro · Oct 18, 2017

vonklaude said:
Noting (in my above post) that I would strongly argue that Tough must be 2HP/Lvl, yes, I agree this creates a question for Durable.

Thank you for your breakdown of a Con ASI in that post. Good stuff!

One option is to observe that Durable is worth practically nothing, so to avoid it being a trap feat it is safe enough to add to Tough. I doubt it makes Tough OP to do that.

I am inclined to agree.

Another could be to allow the spending of HD during combat, instead of only in rests. Maybe to mitigate incoming damage, as a kind of desperate effort.

This is an interesting idea. "Once per encounter, you can spend a hit die as a reaction after being hit. Reduce the damage you take by the number rolled." Not too powerful only once per encounter, but sometimes encounter boundaries aren't clearly defined.
Or, we could do something like this: "As a reaction when taking damage, you can spend a hit die. Reduce the damage you take by half the number rolled, rounded up." Can be done every turn, but you only gain half the benefit, compared to the full (or better with Durable as is) benefit during a short rest.

[Edit: It occurs to me that Tough has to stack up against other feats, as well as against an ASI. Against other feats, adding Durable to Tough is perfectly defensible. Buffs it slightly to make it a valid pick with respect to other feats. Does it mean you never pick +2 Con? Not sure, what do you think?]

+2 Con is an interesting one because it has so few secondary benefits, no skills, and Tough and Resilient cover it quite well. But you are right that other feats are often slightly better than a +2 ASI. Usually, feats don't cover the straight ASI benefits quite so directly.

I do think +2 Con is overshadowed by these feats RAW in the PHB. I still think they are balanced, however.

ro · Oct 18, 2017

I added a new feat Well-Rounded, that is like Dabbler but limited to your own class:

Well-Rounded
Prerequisite: Level 4 in one class
- Your experience in your class has touched more than one subclass. You gain the level features from another subclass of your choice from one of your classes. Your level in that class must be high enough to be eligible, and you must have all lower-level features. For example, a level 8 Divination Wizard could gain the level 2 Evocation features, but not the level 6 features unless he had first gained the level 2 features.
- Your DM may allow you to skip or combine lower-level features that are weaker than those in other classes.
- You may take this feat more than once.

ro · Oct 18, 2017

Durable (if not included in Tough)
- Increase your Constitution score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
- When you roll a Hit Die to regain hit points, the minimum number of hit points you regain from the roll equals twice your Constitution modifier (minimum of 2).
- As a reaction when taking damage, you can spend hit dice. Reduce the damage you take by half the number rolled, rounded up.

Stalker0 · Oct 19, 2017

Math error, pulling the post.

ro · Oct 19, 2017

[MENTION=20564]Blue[/MENTION], et al.

I'm unsure exactly when to give the new spells for Magic Initiate.

Here are three options:

1) Scaling with levels you can gain feats:
-- At 4th level, one 1st-level spell.
-- At 8th level, one 2nd-level spell.
-- At 16th level, one 3rd-level spell.
-- At 19th level, one 4th-level spell.

2) Scaling with levels cantrips improve:
-- At 5th level, one 1st-level spell.
-- At 11th level, one 2nd-level spell.
-- At 17th level, one 3rd-level spell.
-- At 19th level, one 4th-level spell.

3) Scaling with 1/3 casters:
-- At 3rd level, one 1st-level spell.
-- At 7th level, one 2nd-level spell.
-- At 13th level, one 3rd-level spell.
-- At 19th level, one 4th-level spell.

4) Scaling just after 1/3 casters:
-- At 4th level, one 1st-level spell.
-- At 8th level, one 2nd-level spell.
-- At 14th level, one 3rd-level spell.
-- At 19th level, one 4th-level spell.

5) Scaling with levels you can gain feats:
-- At 4th level, one 1st-level spell.
-- At 8th level, one 2nd-level spell.
-- At 12th level, one 3rd-level spell.
-- At 19th level, one 4th-level spell.

(1) has the problem that the 3rd-level spell comes quite late.
(2) makes 2nd- and 3rd-level spells late
(3) doesn't naturally match feat progression, and it could be looked at as stepping on 1/3 casters. But, it could also be looked at as complementing 1/3 casters, so that could be good.
(4) is one step behind 1/3 casters (other than the last spell which matches) and mostly lines up with feat choice levels, except the 3rd-level spell shows up at 14th, which is in between.
(5) makes the 3rd-level spell earlier than a 1/3 caster

I think that (4) is probably my favorite. What do you think?