High Strength Monk

Difficult.
I really would like a strength based monk but I would hesitate to use strength as an AC stat.
I would rather have a fixed bonus to AC that eliminates dexterity alltogether. And fluff it accordingly. I like the stance of the eternal mountain. Maybe make it so that your skin changes to stone and you stop dodging and instead endure hits. Your AC will be 14 + wisdom bonus or so. I'd hesitate to add constitution in the mix because you already need two higher stats and I don't want to tread on the barbarian's toes.

UngeheuerLich said:

Difficult.
I really would like a strength based monk but I would hesitate to use strength as an AC stat.
I would rather have a fixed bonus to AC that eliminates dexterity alltogether. And fluff it accordingly. I like the stance of the eternal mountain. Maybe make it so that your skin changes to stone and you stop dodging and instead endure hits. Your AC will be 14 + wisdom bonus or so. I'd hesitate to add constitution in the mix because you already need two higher stats and I don't want to tread on the barbarian's toes.

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Just curious, why would you hesitate to use Strength for the AC formula? Mechanically, it's less advantageous than Dexterity overall, so it's not a balance issue. Narratively, it makes about as much sense as a Barbarian using Constitution for AC, and I've never seen anyone question that one.

Nevvur said:

Just curious, why would you hesitate to use Strength for the AC formula? Mechanically, it's less advantageous than Dexterity overall, so it's not a balance issue. Narratively, it makes about as much sense as a Barbarian using Constitution for AC, and I've never seen anyone question that one.

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I think it is niche protection. Strength is mechanically not worse than dexterity. It is a misconception because strength advantages are not as obvious as dexterity advantages.
But if you want, you can use 10+str+wis as your formula. Has the benefit of scaling similar to the usual monk formula.
Also I guess even a strength based monk won't dump dex because he has to survive the first 2 levels.

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UngeheuerLich said:

Difficult.
I really would like a strength based monk but I would hesitate to use strength as an AC stat.
I would rather have a fixed bonus to AC that eliminates dexterity alltogether. And fluff it accordingly. I like the stance of the eternal mountain. Maybe make it so that your skin changes to stone and you stop dodging and instead endure hits. Your AC will be 14 + wisdom bonus or so. I'd hesitate to add constitution in the mix because you already need two higher stats and I don't want to tread on the barbarian's toes.

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I like that idea. I might make it something like that. Possibly something like barkskin, the monk's AC is set to 16 unless it is higher (essentially heavy armour but with the option of using the monk's unarmed defence if better).

Refluff a fighter grappler tavern brawler and use some Kind of armor eventually and a quarterstaff, but yes you are a in a bit of Dilemma beacause Monk armed and unarmed techniques are mostly derived from speedy precise movements and using the force of the attacker against him so that is quite a bit dextery based.

Xeviat said:

Hey everyone. I have a player wanting to play a monk, but they want to be a high strength character, not a high Dex character. How would you help facilitate this? Here were my thoughts:

Option 1) Build a monk subclass that allows for light armor, with an AC formula of Wis instead of Dex. With +3 studded leather, it would reach the same AC as a 20/20 Dex/Wis Monk.

Option 2) Build either an improved set of unarmed feats or a subclass for the Fighter.

1 or 2 would depend most on which fit the character better. I haven’t gotten out of the player if they want to be a mystical character or a more grounded character.

How would you handle this request?

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I think any approach would depend on further clarity.

1) Why does the player want to play a monk? What part of the class is desired - the thematic elements (Unarmed fighting and wearing a robe)? Or is it more of the mechanical elements (Deflect missiles, increased run speed, the psuedo-mystical boosts like Stillness of Mind and Purity of Body)?

2) How much does the player lean on his stats to define his character concept? How much refluffing of abilities and feats will the player accept before his enjoyment is impinged?

3) How much of a min/maxers is the player, and how much leeway is here for suboptimal choices at the table? Putting a 12 in DEX instead of 16 is only an AC drop of 2.....can the game absorb that without someone throwing a tantrum because its not optimal?

Nevvur said:

Just curious, why would you hesitate to use Strength for the AC formula? Mechanically, it's less advantageous than Dexterity overall, so it's not a balance issue. Narratively, it makes about as much sense as a Barbarian using Constitution for AC, and I've never seen anyone question that one.

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1) Simple design principles.
CON isn't an attack stat, STR is. DEX also is, but the trade-off is lower damage weapons (and no rage damage). So in order for a Barb to have maxed Attack AND max CON AND high damage dice weapons, they need to max 3 main stats, which is an extreme and rare design choice. A typical Barbarian chooses STR and CON first, and so in order to promote the loincloth attire, Unarmoured Defence props up lower DEX. Also, as the player is likely (not all the time - but likely) to ASI boost an Attack Stat first, the boosted AC stays more relevant for longer.

2) HP and AC hand-waviness.
D&D sort of jumbles up the idea of Dodge AC (DEX), tougher Armour AC (Leather/chain/plate), Skill (Level), and physical Hardiness (CON) into 1 huge calculation of survivability. So under that guise, throwing CON in twice (Adding to AC AND HP) isn't notionally as great a leap as lobbing STR into the mix.

Subclass sounds right, with a Ki ability for damage reduction.

I would love to see a Strength-based Monk subclass.

Nevvur said:

Just curious, why would you hesitate to use Strength for the AC formula? Mechanically, it's less advantageous than Dexterity overall, so it's not a balance issue. Narratively, it makes about as much sense as a Barbarian using Constitution for AC, and I've never seen anyone question that one.

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You weren't asking me, but I wouldn't do it simply because it's uninteresting to make a Strength Monk by simply using Strength for everything instead of Dex. I'd allow light armor and leave Unarmored Defense the way it instead of making Dex a total dump.

Then I'd give some kind of damage reduction/resistance, borrowing perhaps from Barbarian/Rogue/Duelist. E.g., "When you are attacked by a melee or ranged attack, after the die is rolled you may use your Reaction to add your Str modifier to your AC against that attack." Or maybe damage reduction vs. S/P/B equal to Strength mod, for 1 minute for 1 ki? Or just give them Uncanny Dodge, refluffed for strength?

And then one or two cool things to bring the build to life:
- Unsuccessful Stunning Strikes become Shoves?
- Nifty bonus for Grappling?
- Spend a Ki to perform amazing non-combat feats of Strength?
Etc.

I've just had a skim back through all the abilities - and I've kind of realised something...

There's no such thing as a DEX monk. It seems we explicitly assume a Monk keys off DEX, but aside from unarmed attacks using DEX (instead of strength) and Deflect Missiles - absolutely nothing a monk does outside of the normal rules for every class talks about Dexterity. Casting and saves run off Wisdom. Attacks are jsut attacks made with either STR or DEX. The only change to AC is a WIS bonus. Your Ki abilities force opponents to make saves. Even your Evasion is based off the effect AFTER you've made a DEX save. It doesn't augment it in any way.

Take, for example, a very average Human Monk with an ability array of STR14, C14, D14, I13, W14,C12. Currently, with their abilities, he has zero benefits to using DEX over STR for anything. His DEX isn't improved by any of his abilities when applied to a calculation. None. Therefore, at this point if you were to build a specific "STR" Monk, what would they do better than now? And if there is something, doesn't that make it inherently "better" than the normal monk (By boosting it's STR when it uses these abilities)?

So actually what the Monk does is *Synergise* better with the existing DEX rules (namely the AC calcs). But that isn't necessarily a problem. For example the Barbarian explicitly states it's abilities key off STR, and Paladin's fighting styles are mainly heavy armour and STR focused - they Synergise better with the STR rules (Heavy weapons and Rage abilities).

So actually, building a STR monk has nothing to do with the class at all - it's a fundamental disagreement with how AC is mechanically calculated (with regards to DEX), and the desire of players to maximise AC for a melee character like a monk.