BookBarbarian
Expert Long Rester
Right that does complicate things.
D&D 5E Barbarian Archetype: Path of the Hulk
Right that does complicate things.
Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
So I've considered some of the feedback presented and have adjusted the archetype accordingly.
Path of the Hulk
Barbarians that follow this path do not just channel their rage, they become avatars of uncontrolled anger and wrath. Most barbarians that follow this path have experienced an incredible trauma that opened the gates within their souls, allowing their rage to physically change their bodies into potent weapons, ensuring they will never be victims again. Barbarians of the Hulk usually change in some noticeable way when they rage. Some may change color, get slightly bigger, grow horns or have their hands become savage clubs. Regardless of the type of change, the manner of the change is purely cosmetic and has no mechanical impact.
Hulk Smash
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, your fists become brutal weapons, becoming larger with sharp, bony protrusions growing from the knuckles. Your unarmed attacks now deal 1d6 bludgeoning damage. If you are not carrying weapons or using a shield, your unarmed attacks add double your rage damage while raging.
Reasoning: I know this may upset some, allowing a barbarian to get unarmed strike damage that is higher than a monk. However, it doesn't improve over time as the monk's does, and makes it competitive with heavier weapons.
Based on average damage, I calculate that the difference between the unarmed strike and a greatsword is 1 point (in favor of the greatsword). This assumes that the Barbarian of the Hulk is raging, not using a shield and gaining double rage damage with a 16 strength against a non-Hulk raging barbarian with 16 strength using a greatsword. By level 20, the difference changes in that based on average damage the unarmed Hulk Barbarian is better by 1 point. Unarmed damage will be more consistent, but barbarians using weapons will have higher damage potential and have better damage dice to use for Brutal Critical.
Hulk Bash
Beginning at 3rd level, when you enter rage you grow more massive and your muscles bulge. Regardless of your starting size, you become large. Barbarians of the Hulk that are already large sized grow one size category larger (included just in case a large sized player race is ever created). If there isn’t enough room for you to grow to your new size, you attain the maximum possible size in the space available. As a result of your new size and strength, while raging you deal an additional 1d4 damage when you successfully strike with a melee attack. This damage is of the same type as made by the melee attack.
Reasoning: The unarmed attack isn't enough for a 3rd level ability (especially if the barbarian chooses to use weapons). And an enlarge effect is not enough by itself to use as a 3rd level ability (since the barbarian already gains advantage on strength checks and saves while raging). But the additional d4 damage, the unarmed strike, and the potential benefits of being large sized with grapple/forced movement scenarios... well I think combined it makes for a nice starting package for the archetype.
Prodigious Leap
Beginning at 6th level, you can leap much farther than normal. You normal jump distance is doubled. While raging, your normal jump distance is tripled.
Reasoning: It was suggested, and I liked it. Seems consistent in power level with other 6th level barbarian archetype abilities.
Haunted Homing Sense
Beginning at 10th level, you always know how to return to the place where you experienced the trauma that defines your rage. As long as you are on the same plane of existence where the trauma occurred, you instinctively know which direction it is relative to you, and the approximate distance from you.
Reasoning: Level 10 for barbarian archetypes seems to often be more related to exploration or a ribbon ability. I thought this fit that approach while keeping the Hulk theme in there (in the comics the Hulk always knows how to return to the spot of the original gamma bomb blast that changed him).
Hulk is the Strongest There Is!
Starting at 14th level, you are capable of throwing enemies about the battlefield as living projectiles. While raging with at least one free hand, you can use your action to make a special unarmed strike against a chosen target and throw them. The target cannot be larger than one size category larger than you. If successful, you throw them in a direction of your choosing. The target is thrown a distance equal to 1d6 times 5', and for each 5' the target takes 1d6 damage. The target is allowed a Dexterity Saving throw (DC 8 + proficiency + Strength mod) to avoid landing prone. If the target lands in a space occupied by another creature, that creature must also make a Dexterity Saving throw or take the same damage and be knocked Prone.
You have disadvantage on this attack if the target is one size category larger than you. You have advantage on this attack if the target is small size or smaller.
Reasoning: I really liked the idea suggested to throw people. It allows a barbarian to not only be a frontline fighter, but offers some battlefield control as well.
Path of the Hulk
Barbarians that follow this path do not just channel their rage, they become avatars of uncontrolled anger and wrath. Most barbarians that follow this path have experienced an incredible trauma that opened the gates within their souls, allowing their rage to physically change their bodies into potent weapons, ensuring they will never be victims again. Barbarians of the Hulk usually change in some noticeable way when they rage. Some may change color, get slightly bigger, grow horns or have their hands become savage clubs. Regardless of the type of change, the manner of the change is purely cosmetic and has no mechanical impact.
Hulk Smash
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, your fists become brutal weapons, becoming larger with sharp, bony protrusions growing from the knuckles. Your unarmed attacks now deal 1d6 bludgeoning damage. If you are not carrying weapons or using a shield, your unarmed attacks add double your rage damage while raging.
Reasoning: I know this may upset some, allowing a barbarian to get unarmed strike damage that is higher than a monk. However, it doesn't improve over time as the monk's does, and makes it competitive with heavier weapons.
Based on average damage, I calculate that the difference between the unarmed strike and a greatsword is 1 point (in favor of the greatsword). This assumes that the Barbarian of the Hulk is raging, not using a shield and gaining double rage damage with a 16 strength against a non-Hulk raging barbarian with 16 strength using a greatsword. By level 20, the difference changes in that based on average damage the unarmed Hulk Barbarian is better by 1 point. Unarmed damage will be more consistent, but barbarians using weapons will have higher damage potential and have better damage dice to use for Brutal Critical.
Hulk Bash
Beginning at 3rd level, when you enter rage you grow more massive and your muscles bulge. Regardless of your starting size, you become large. Barbarians of the Hulk that are already large sized grow one size category larger (included just in case a large sized player race is ever created). If there isn’t enough room for you to grow to your new size, you attain the maximum possible size in the space available. As a result of your new size and strength, while raging you deal an additional 1d4 damage when you successfully strike with a melee attack. This damage is of the same type as made by the melee attack.
Reasoning: The unarmed attack isn't enough for a 3rd level ability (especially if the barbarian chooses to use weapons). And an enlarge effect is not enough by itself to use as a 3rd level ability (since the barbarian already gains advantage on strength checks and saves while raging). But the additional d4 damage, the unarmed strike, and the potential benefits of being large sized with grapple/forced movement scenarios... well I think combined it makes for a nice starting package for the archetype.
Prodigious Leap
Beginning at 6th level, you can leap much farther than normal. You normal jump distance is doubled. While raging, your normal jump distance is tripled.
Reasoning: It was suggested, and I liked it. Seems consistent in power level with other 6th level barbarian archetype abilities.
Haunted Homing Sense
Beginning at 10th level, you always know how to return to the place where you experienced the trauma that defines your rage. As long as you are on the same plane of existence where the trauma occurred, you instinctively know which direction it is relative to you, and the approximate distance from you.
Reasoning: Level 10 for barbarian archetypes seems to often be more related to exploration or a ribbon ability. I thought this fit that approach while keeping the Hulk theme in there (in the comics the Hulk always knows how to return to the spot of the original gamma bomb blast that changed him).
Hulk is the Strongest There Is!
Starting at 14th level, you are capable of throwing enemies about the battlefield as living projectiles. While raging with at least one free hand, you can use your action to make a special unarmed strike against a chosen target and throw them. The target cannot be larger than one size category larger than you. If successful, you throw them in a direction of your choosing. The target is thrown a distance equal to 1d6 times 5', and for each 5' the target takes 1d6 damage. The target is allowed a Dexterity Saving throw (DC 8 + proficiency + Strength mod) to avoid landing prone. If the target lands in a space occupied by another creature, that creature must also make a Dexterity Saving throw or take the same damage and be knocked Prone.
You have disadvantage on this attack if the target is one size category larger than you. You have advantage on this attack if the target is small size or smaller.
Reasoning: I really liked the idea suggested to throw people. It allows a barbarian to not only be a frontline fighter, but offers some battlefield control as well.
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Good goal.
I think you don't want to do this -- do other subclasses overlap with feats? I don't think so (except in cases like Magic Initiate and skilled, where it's not doubling-up abilities. You want a design that works whether or not the player chooses to take the GWM feat.
For that reason, I was focusing on making the unarmed variation work, since that is new territory. If someone with this option also wants GWM, they can go for it.
TO that end, what if damage was 2d6+STR+RAGE. (d6 for fist, doubled for large, with normal bonuses). That's quite a bit, but still comparable to what a non-enlarged barb does with a heavy weapon. (or, if using normal weapons, WEAP+d4+STR+RAGE).
What it doesn't account for is (a) multi-classing with monk, and (b) coming across large-size weapons. SO it would need refining.
But bonus action for an extra attack to my mind still steps on monk abilities.
Well said. The only characters I have seen affected meaningfully in a game with exhaustion are Barbarians.
(oops -- our posts crossed in the stream)
Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
I think making the unarmed d6, giving a general +d4 to any melee weapon while enlarged during rage, and allowing a special doubling of rage damage bonus for unarmed strike while not using a shield makes it less clunky (though writing it out as I did certainly doesn't make it seem that way, lol). I think I'm dropping the bonus action attack to allow monks to have the better number of attacks while a barbarian hulk hits a bit harder is the route to go. And as for monk/hulk barbarian multiclass, a monk could use their better unarmed strike damage when in higher levels with the hulk barbarian's double rage damage. I think it roughly balances out since both rise with level, and so they essentially cap each other in that way. Though their may be some level combination that is optimal for that kind of damage. I haven't looked at it like that too hard.
I like a lot of this! A couple thoughts:
Level 3: I think it should be just 1 size larger rather than automatically Large. The thought of a gnome barbarian raging and becoming 6 feet tall is slightly terrifying. The gnome barbarian becoming Large is a bit weird. The rest looks fairly good.
Level 6: There should be an option for a bonus action Grapple/Shove somewhere around here or level 10. One of my favorite things with my Tavern Brawler hulk was to grapple and then shove prone followed by ground pounding. It honestly goes a long way toward not needing the weapon damage to be as high because it helps hulk and all the other melee characters.
Level 10: I understand what you are trying to do, but this is the one I like the least. I just do not think it will be very useful in play. It seems more like a Background feature.
Level 14: I think that it should be mentioned that you are proficient in using grappled creatures as weapons so that the proficiency bonus is included, and the creature has a weapon die that is based on its NPC hit die (small creatures d6, mediume d8, etc.). The distance for throwing creatures smaller than you seems a bit limited and probably should be more like 20 ft./60 ft while a creature your size or one size larger can only be thrown and has a range of 0 ft. / 20 ft. (always disadvantage). Hitting a creature with another creature as a melee or ranged attack should do the same damage to both the thrown and target creatures. It may also work to decouple this from raging so that a medium PC can still smash around a small creature.
Level 3: I think it should be just 1 size larger rather than automatically Large. The thought of a gnome barbarian raging and becoming 6 feet tall is slightly terrifying. The gnome barbarian becoming Large is a bit weird. The rest looks fairly good.
Level 6: There should be an option for a bonus action Grapple/Shove somewhere around here or level 10. One of my favorite things with my Tavern Brawler hulk was to grapple and then shove prone followed by ground pounding. It honestly goes a long way toward not needing the weapon damage to be as high because it helps hulk and all the other melee characters.
Level 10: I understand what you are trying to do, but this is the one I like the least. I just do not think it will be very useful in play. It seems more like a Background feature.
Level 14: I think that it should be mentioned that you are proficient in using grappled creatures as weapons so that the proficiency bonus is included, and the creature has a weapon die that is based on its NPC hit die (small creatures d6, mediume d8, etc.). The distance for throwing creatures smaller than you seems a bit limited and probably should be more like 20 ft./60 ft while a creature your size or one size larger can only be thrown and has a range of 0 ft. / 20 ft. (always disadvantage). Hitting a creature with another creature as a melee or ranged attack should do the same damage to both the thrown and target creatures. It may also work to decouple this from raging so that a medium PC can still smash around a small creature.
Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
My issue with doing it that way is that it gives greater incentive to medium sized races and makes it less appealing to small characters. There is a clear advantage to being Large versus Medium when it comes to grapple and forced movement effects. Plus it also just feels cooler. Additionally, it places a limit on small characters once they get their capstone. Personally, I like to keep mechanics even across races as much as possible outside of stat adjustments.
I don't think there's enough design space to include both Jump and the Shove bonus action. Berserker Barbarians gain Mindless Rage, Totem Barbarians can carrying stuff like someone one size larger and get advantage on checks to break things, and Battleragers get temp HP when taking a very specific type of action while raging. Plus I don't necessarily see this path as the master grappler. Hulk doesn't usually wrestle. He hits you, throws you, tears you apart, but rarely does he have the restraint necessary to grapple someone when bashing and smashing are also options.
The level 10 abilities for Barbarian Paths are essentially ribbon abilities, and usually aimed at either exploration or interaction rather than combat. I couldn't think of a better ribbon ability that worked with the theme, so I went with this one.
I don't think there needs to be mention of adding proficiency to the attack, since it is specified that it is a special type of unarmed strike. Also, I don't like the idea of a player wielding enemies as weapons. Tossed projectiles that might happen to hit other targets, maybe. But holding an enemy and using them as a bat? Nah. At least, that's not my style.
Personally, I don't think the range should be set or the target be treated as normal projectiles. The distance is varied to reflect that this is a living projectile that may be resisting. And it shouldn't be a guarantee that the raging hulk barbarian can toss the evil wizard into that chasm 30ft away.
And the damage should be standardized based around falling damage, rather than using the target's hit die. This way it doesn't require the DM to calculate or to share with the players the type of HD the enemies are using.
As for coupling it with rage, I think this is an ability that can only be done while raging. Assuming a large creature with 18 strength, their push, lift, or drag limit is 1,080 pounds. That may seem like a lot, but that is dead weight and you are just lifting it, not tossing it. When you factor in that this is a creature that may be actively fighting you and that you are trying to toss, that is not enough.
As an example, weighing 230 lbs as a track athlete with specialized training with a specific throwing technique, I could toss a 16 lb metal ball about 45 ft. That is about 7% my body weight, not fighting me outside its own inertia, with a specialized technique under perfect conditions. To scale that up, in order to toss a 230lb adventurer (who is not struggling and just dead weight) that far, a creature would need to weigh about 3,300 lbs, or twice as much as a 230lb adventurer that has grown to large size (since a creature's weight increases x8 when using the enlarge spell).
So even with a larger body size and near maxed strength, throwing someone any worthwhile distance is a feat of strength that can only be accomplished by someone raging with their adrenaline pumping hard.
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If that is the case, then this might be treated a little more like a polymorph rather than an enlarge. So a creature transforms into a hulk rather than "hulks up". This would mean that large creatures do not gain a size, and the bonus damage should not be increased for a large PC. It also makes the reasoning for a higher damage die for unarmed strikes easier. I think this might also be a good place to include proficiency with improvised weapons.
The bonus action grapple / shove is as much for grabbing and repeatedly punching an enemy as it is for setting up attacks and throws with a modified level 14 feature. It may be more interesting to have jump become the level 10 ribbon ability.
I guess I was visualizing something different. Rereading the level 14 feature, I understand it now to be that he basically hits them and they go flying. I was thinking about how the hulk uses enemies that are smaller effortlessly as weapons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31ZjnrHR8EA
This would tie in well with a bonus action grapple. Once the hulk has a creature that is smaller, its resisting amounts to trying to escape the grapple or fighting back with a weapon or spell, but it is not really stopping any use of its body as a weapon. If any enemies had been nearby in the previous clip, Loki's body could have been used to pulverize them. This is also why I suggested that smaller creatures have a fixed distance rather than a die roll. The hulk has no problem throwing a medium creature like a baseball, and 60 feet seems very feasible. The downside of missing with a ranged attack roll is that the thrown PC takes a minimal amount of damage. Taking the feature as written to an extreme, it seems odd that there would be a chance that he can only throw a gnome or cat between 5 and 30 feet. Allowing smaller creatures to be used as improvised weapons would tie in nicely with granting proficiency in improvised weapons at level 3.
Fair enough.
Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
Well I say in the description that anyone of large size or larger increases in size by one category. There are no large or larger sized PC races, but it's in there in case someone wants to run a monstrous player campaign or if anyone makes a large PC race. Also, I think it's still appropriate to increase the damage by the same amount, regardless of the player's original starting size. You can picture it as a polymorph effect, an enlarge effect, or however. That's all just flavor, mechanics are mechanics. I tend to prefer to standardize a class so that it works similarly regardless of the starting race used. But that's just the way I think and work out homebrew mechanics with 5e.
As for improvised weapon proficiency, I don't know. I see how it fits, but I don't personally like the idea. That's just me though. I see this archetype as being able to still benefit from Tavern Brawler, rather than this archetype replacing the need to take Tavern Brawler.
I suppose that's a viable option. But like I said above, I don't think this archetype replaces the need to take Tavern Brawler, but can still be enhanced by it. I tried to incorporate Great Weapon Master in here, and it really limited what this archetype could be, so I ditched that.
I can see your side of it, but I guess it seems a little silly, even for D&D standards, to use enemies as clubs. It also creates a headache for the DM, because then you have to take into account that one enemy will usually be removed from the combat and used as a weapon. Then adjudicating how that enemy responds, how long that kind of grapple can be maintained, and knowing that the player is always going to find an excuse to use this ability... I see it being fun at first but quickly becoming annoying. This way it's more like a modified repelling blast than a whole new fighting mechanic.
And I apologize, I'm not trying to discourage or discount your ideas. They are certainly viable and have merit. I just see things a bit differently.
Oh, no worries, I see these kinds of discussions of rules, rulings, and mechanics as a great means to distill and refine things and make them better.
