D&D 5E Which parts of D&D came from Tolkien?

Sacrosanct · Oct 29, 2017

Shadowdweller00 said:
Gygax wasn't the only influence / creator of the game either. Every part of it has changed over time. From Gygax on elves:
As originally appearing, Gygax is correct. However, as D&D has evolved the D&D elf has become MORE Tolkienized.

Elves originally had beards

I think people look at modern D&D representations and assume that’s how they always were.

Anyone who thinks D&D wouldn’t have been made without Tolkien needs to look at appendix N again. And while he certainly is the most famous fantasy author, he certainly wasn’t the only one back then. He wrote those books as a way to mess around with languages and creat a singular Anglo Saxon mythology he felt was missing. But the fantasy genre existed before he wrote “in a hole there lived a hobbit”

No one is saying he didn’t have influence, but to say the game owes its existence to him is an insult to all of those other people who worked in the genre, and runs counter to Gygax’s own words.

Sacrosanct · Oct 29, 2017

Elfcrusher said:
Wow. I sense anger in this one. (Show us on the doll where Saul Zaentz touched you, maybe?)

So now "popularized" == "single-handedly mainstreamed". Ok.

I will partially retract my claim that EGG & Co. would never have made D&D if it hadn't been for Tolkien, but they may as well not have: it wouldn't have found a large, receptive audience if there weren't so many Tolkien fans.

The analogy to Star Wars that Remathilis makes below is apt, I think. Sure, there was science fiction before Star Wars. But Star Wars made it cool.

Say wut? Science fiction wouldn’t have become cool without Star Wars? Star Trek and Flash Gordon disagree with you (both before SW, and both hugely popular).

Morrus · Oct 29, 2017

Sci fi would still be here without Star Wars - it would just be different. D&D would be different without Tolkien, but it would still be here.

Shasarak · Oct 29, 2017

Morrus said:
5th level character can’t beat a Balor.

They can if the DM just writes the fight. **cough**Drizzt**cough**

Shadowdweller00 · Oct 29, 2017

Morrus said:
Sci fi would still be here without Star Wars - it would just be different. D&D would be different without Tolkien, but it would still be here.

Pfft. Next you'll be telling us that Grimdark would have existed without GoT.

Parmandur · Oct 30, 2017

Sacrosanct said:
Elves originally had beards

I think people look at modern D&D representations and assume that’s how they always were.

Anyone who thinks D&D wouldn’t have been made without Tolkien needs to look at appendix N again. And while he certainly is the most famous fantasy author, he certainly wasn’t the only one back then. He wrote those books as a way to mess around with languages and creat a singular Anglo Saxon mythology he felt was missing. But the fantasy genre existed before he wrote “in a hole there lived a hobbit”

No one is saying he didn’t have influence, but to say the game owes its existence to him is an insult to all of those other people who worked in the genre, and runs counter to Gygax’s own words.

Nobody is saying the game wouldn't have existed without Tolkien, but Tolkien was clearly a major influence on the mental sprachbund the game originated in: arguing against that is silly, and much less interesting than asking which elements are Tolikienian or semi-Tolkienian (the topic of the thread).

Sacrosanct · Oct 30, 2017

Parmandur said:
Nobody is saying the game wouldn't have existed without Tolkien,

Yes, someone did say that

Parmandur · Oct 30, 2017

Sacrosanct said:
Yes, someone did say that

Well, then that's just silly: about as silly as saying that D&D Elves aren't Tolkien Elves, or D&D humanoids aren't derived from the Snaga/Uruk/Urak-Hai complex of Goblins/Ors in Tolkien.

Shadowdweller00 · Oct 30, 2017

vonklaude said:
Can you point to a a half-Elven character of concrete lineage prior to Aragorn? And what about the Charisma bonus etc? All very kingly/Aragorn-like.

By the way, this story prominently features an half-elven character. And serves as a pre-Tolkien example of elves as timeless, beautiful creatures with an affinity for magic and nature.

Guest 6801328 · Oct 30, 2017

Parmandur said:
Nobody is saying the game wouldn't have existed without Tolkien, but Tolkien was clearly a major influence on the mental sprachbund the game originated in: arguing against that is silly, and much less interesting than asking which elements are Tolikienian or semi-Tolkienian (the topic of the thread).

Incorrect. I asserted that.

I don't know that, of course, and I could very well be wrong. But I seriously wonder if there would have been enough interest in the genre for D&D to have taken off the first time. Maybe Gygax & Co. would have stuck with miniature wargaming. Maybe they still would have created D&D, but without Tolkien it would have both looked very different and wouldn't have had as large of a "primed" audience, so maybe it wouldn't have become the phenomenon that it was.

I suspect we still would have roleplaying games by now, but what would they look like if D&D hadn't been the dominant one back in the 80's, and therefore be such a strong influence on the games of today? Maybe "D&D" would look a lot more like Arthurian stories, or Conan, or Game of Thrones: all human heroes, very little magic (or used for evil).

D&D 5E Which parts of D&D came from Tolkien?

Sacrosanct

Legend

Sacrosanct

Legend

Morrus

Well, that was fun

Shasarak

Banned

Shadowdweller00

Adventurer

Parmandur

Book-Friend

Sacrosanct

Legend

Parmandur

Book-Friend

Shadowdweller00

Adventurer

Guest 6801328

Guest

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