*Smites [MENTION=6862128]BigBadDM[/MENTION] * Your pathetic attempt at humor reeks of heresy, and falls upon deaf ears. Not only does fear have no place in a Paladin's heart, but neither does tolerance for humor or mockery at the expense of this world's greatest heroes, you ungrateful blaggart!
D&D 5E Paladin: Why Are They Often Considered Highly Powerful?
- Thread starter Mistwell
- Start date
*Smites [MENTION=6862128]BigBadDM[/MENTION] * Your pathetic attempt at humor reeks of heresy, and falls upon deaf ears. Not only does fear have no place in a Paladin's heart, but neither does tolerance for humor or mockery at the expense of this world's greatest heroes, you ungrateful blaggart!
werecorpse
Adventurer
Paladin starts balanced up to about 4th level but then gets a big bump at 5th (second attack, extra 5hp lay on hands and 1x1st, 2x2nd level spells - fighters just get second attack) then seems to just get incrementally more powerful each level. They end up at 10th+ nigh invulnerable to magic and at 14th they get auto dispels.
5th as above - goes to paladin
6th bonus to all saves & +5LoH vs stat improvement and +1 HP for second wind - pal
7th immunity aura, 2nd level spell, +5LoH vs weakish ability and +1hp saw - pal
8th ability score, +5LoH v ability score and +1 to sw - pal
9th 2x3rdvlevel spells, +5LoH v reroll 1 save and +1 to Sw-pal
10th aura of courage , +5LoH v improved subclass effect - hard to rate - equal, maybe slightly in favour of paladin
11th extra d8 damage per attack, 3rd level spell, 5LoH v extra attack, and 1 sw - pal ----this is the level that people point to to say that fighters are equal to,Paladins because of that extra attack but the paladin gets its improved divine smite to undercut it as well as the other stuff.
It's mind blowing to examine. I would love to see Mike Mearls happy fun time hour comparing these two classes.
I have contemplated improving other non spellcasting classes to match paladin by rolling berserker barbarian into base barbarian, champion unto base fighter, thief into base rogue, hunter into base ranger, and open hand into base monk to try and catch up with all the Paladins abilities but I worry it makes things like battle clerics, valour bards and blade pact warlocks too sub par.
Has anyone undertaken a weakening of Paladins?
(Btw this isn't just white room I run games with Paladins, fighters barbarians etc in them. I agree that one can ameliorate the difference for the fighter by having numerous short rests a day but that's a serious clog on game design)
5th as above - goes to paladin
6th bonus to all saves & +5LoH vs stat improvement and +1 HP for second wind - pal
7th immunity aura, 2nd level spell, +5LoH vs weakish ability and +1hp saw - pal
8th ability score, +5LoH v ability score and +1 to sw - pal
9th 2x3rdvlevel spells, +5LoH v reroll 1 save and +1 to Sw-pal
10th aura of courage , +5LoH v improved subclass effect - hard to rate - equal, maybe slightly in favour of paladin
11th extra d8 damage per attack, 3rd level spell, 5LoH v extra attack, and 1 sw - pal ----this is the level that people point to to say that fighters are equal to,Paladins because of that extra attack but the paladin gets its improved divine smite to undercut it as well as the other stuff.
It's mind blowing to examine. I would love to see Mike Mearls happy fun time hour comparing these two classes.
I have contemplated improving other non spellcasting classes to match paladin by rolling berserker barbarian into base barbarian, champion unto base fighter, thief into base rogue, hunter into base ranger, and open hand into base monk to try and catch up with all the Paladins abilities but I worry it makes things like battle clerics, valour bards and blade pact warlocks too sub par.
Has anyone undertaken a weakening of Paladins?
(Btw this isn't just white room I run games with Paladins, fighters barbarians etc in them. I agree that one can ameliorate the difference for the fighter by having numerous short rests a day but that's a serious clog on game design)
Ancalagon
Dusty Dragon
Ultimately the fighter vs paladin balance is entirely dependent on the pace of the game..
Sacrosanct
Legend
a thread necro'd twice. Impressive
Ancalagon
Dusty Dragon
I think it speaks to the central balance problem of 5e (long vs short rest classes) - there is no easy solution and it will keep cropping up.
Charles Rampant
Explorer
Also it's been a while since any new rumours came out to discuss
LudicSavant
Villager
Short version: The Paladin is strong because, without their aura, they are comparable to other traditional martial characters. And then you count their aura, which is one of the best single abilities in the entire game.
Mind, I wouldn't say this makes them overpowered, but it does help them compete for a party slot with the full casters.
Mind, I wouldn't say this makes them overpowered, but it does help them compete for a party slot with the full casters.
Last edited:
jgsugden
Legend
Simply Put: Human Variant Vengeance Paladin (casts Haste) at level 12 with 20 Strength, 16 Charisma, and Polearm and GWM Feats is at a power point that really hurts...
Action - Multi-attack with Halberd
Haste - One more Attack with Halberd
Bonus - Either a d4 or extra Halberd attack (if they have critted or felled an enemy).
Reaction Attack - a couple sources, but not entirely reliable.
Their attacks start out at +9 (5 strength, 4 proficiency), with easy access to advantage in many games. A magic weapon makes this grow higher.
In one round they can attack 4 or 5 times.
Each attack does d10 (maybe d4 for the bonus) + d8 radiant + 5 strength base - 15 damage. Then, they have 10 spell slots to smite with and they deal 3d8 for a 1st level spell, 4d8 for a 2nd and 5d8 for a third. Oh, and those could all be GWM attacks at +10 damage each.... That might be 5d10+25d8+75 ... 215 damage. He might SOLO ... in ONE ROUND ... an adult (huge) dragon with a CR of 14 to 16. The odds are there will be a miss or two in there that will prevent it... slightly... but I do see paladins do this type of thing too often. And if you attack 5 times, the odds of a crit are nearly 25%.
On top of this nova offense he has great defenses with low ability score costs (dex can be 10) and still get up to a 20 AC with only spells and armor). He has the best saves in the game (+chr to all saves), and has healing/condition removal and potentially some minor spells to throw in on top of this other abilities. Plus magic mount spells, and access to social skills that put him front and center in social encounters.
My preference would be that they change Smite so that it can be used on no more than 1 attack per round.
Action - Multi-attack with Halberd
Haste - One more Attack with Halberd
Bonus - Either a d4 or extra Halberd attack (if they have critted or felled an enemy).
Reaction Attack - a couple sources, but not entirely reliable.
Their attacks start out at +9 (5 strength, 4 proficiency), with easy access to advantage in many games. A magic weapon makes this grow higher.
In one round they can attack 4 or 5 times.
Each attack does d10 (maybe d4 for the bonus) + d8 radiant + 5 strength base - 15 damage. Then, they have 10 spell slots to smite with and they deal 3d8 for a 1st level spell, 4d8 for a 2nd and 5d8 for a third. Oh, and those could all be GWM attacks at +10 damage each.... That might be 5d10+25d8+75 ... 215 damage. He might SOLO ... in ONE ROUND ... an adult (huge) dragon with a CR of 14 to 16. The odds are there will be a miss or two in there that will prevent it... slightly... but I do see paladins do this type of thing too often. And if you attack 5 times, the odds of a crit are nearly 25%.
On top of this nova offense he has great defenses with low ability score costs (dex can be 10) and still get up to a 20 AC with only spells and armor). He has the best saves in the game (+chr to all saves), and has healing/condition removal and potentially some minor spells to throw in on top of this other abilities. Plus magic mount spells, and access to social skills that put him front and center in social encounters.
My preference would be that they change Smite so that it can be used on no more than 1 attack per round.
werecorpse
Adventurer
I disagree Ancalagon that it's purely a "pace if game issue" though that is an important factor.
The Paladins combat defence up to 5th matches the fighter and both are weaker than a raging barbarian. Both compensate by getting a bit of healing capacity. Then the auras start over the next few levels and that provide superior defence to the fighter and probably the barbarian.
Their offence is defined by their nova smite ability which is a phenomenally potent ability.
So they end up being much better offensively and much better defensively than their peer classes.
I come from a 1e background played 3/3.5 & pathfinder and then 5e. My recollection of Paladins iconic ability was lay on hands 2hp/level and +2 to all saves. They also got some cleric spells but that was small beer. The LoH being able to be spread out as needed was the main schtick. They were viewed as the most powerful melee character class but they needed extra xp to level up. However the improvements over fighters were comparatively minimal. Smite first appeared iirc in 3e as a 1/day maybe a couple more during level up. Then as feats appeared over the life of 3.5 smite got stronger. When Pathfinder was designed I felt that perhaps the Paladin lobby group got hold of things during the open Playtest and design and they came out of that as real min max monsters.
But in 5e it feels like smiting is their iconic ability. Lay on Hands, despite a power up to 5/level and the ability to do some lesser restoration stuff is now a second rate ability. In jgsugfens example above he doesn't even mention that the paladin is immune to a whole lot of stuff and can heal 60 hit points as an action.
I wonder if going further than the suggestion of allowing 1 smite per round to only allowing 1 per short rest?
Inspired by Ancalagons comment I've been looking at another old thread on dealing with the short rest/long rest dichotomy issue. It is an area that can help the issue but I don't think solves it.
Even if you say the 6th+ level paladin has used up all of their daily powers and doesn't rest they then end up a slightly below par fighter but with some auras. Compared to the full powered battlemaster fighter the battlemaster fighter has 4 dice of superiority, an action surge and a second wind. The battle master fighter is stronger against non magical foes because the paladin defences are largely useless, but probably not against spell casters. And that's comparing it to a paladin without any of its daily powers left.
Even forgetting smite - their now most fearsome ability. Each 5 points of lay on hands (that can be specifically managed so could for example be used to give 1hp to an unconscious person 5 times) that can also cure poison or disease. This ability is about equivalent to a 1st level spell. So by 5th level they not only have 4 first and 2 second level spells but another 6 first, plus a channel divinity.
Looking at similar abilities or level abilities for any other non spellcaster class just reinforces this issue. At 6th level when a paladin gets its Cha bonus to saves an open hand monk gets to heal 3hp a level self only...so a much weaker version of the first level paladin ability to lay on hands? At 7th when having already got the save aura they get an aura that might make then immune to charm a hunter ranger might gets to have advantage on fear saves.
How does it actually work in game? Well some players may play Paladins as selfless helping the party and not taking the spotlight but they can just be the frontline fighter in heavy armour with good saves swinging their sword, supplement their hit points with that sweet lay on hands boost, save most spells and then when the boss fight arrives go nova and out damage the other fighters by a significant margin.
I have a paladin in a long running slow exp campaign that is about to reach 6th level. He is played by someone who likes to maximise his characters abilities (not a criticism!) so I want to make sure he can play his character without making the fighter, barbarian and melee rogue feel second rate. I can up the rate of short rests that will help the fighter but that doesn't help the barbarian or the rogue.
I necro ed the thread because people have likely had more play since last time it lived and enworld often has some good thoughts on game balance issues
The Paladins combat defence up to 5th matches the fighter and both are weaker than a raging barbarian. Both compensate by getting a bit of healing capacity. Then the auras start over the next few levels and that provide superior defence to the fighter and probably the barbarian.
Their offence is defined by their nova smite ability which is a phenomenally potent ability.
So they end up being much better offensively and much better defensively than their peer classes.
I come from a 1e background played 3/3.5 & pathfinder and then 5e. My recollection of Paladins iconic ability was lay on hands 2hp/level and +2 to all saves. They also got some cleric spells but that was small beer. The LoH being able to be spread out as needed was the main schtick. They were viewed as the most powerful melee character class but they needed extra xp to level up. However the improvements over fighters were comparatively minimal. Smite first appeared iirc in 3e as a 1/day maybe a couple more during level up. Then as feats appeared over the life of 3.5 smite got stronger. When Pathfinder was designed I felt that perhaps the Paladin lobby group got hold of things during the open Playtest and design and they came out of that as real min max monsters.
But in 5e it feels like smiting is their iconic ability. Lay on Hands, despite a power up to 5/level and the ability to do some lesser restoration stuff is now a second rate ability. In jgsugfens example above he doesn't even mention that the paladin is immune to a whole lot of stuff and can heal 60 hit points as an action.
I wonder if going further than the suggestion of allowing 1 smite per round to only allowing 1 per short rest?
Inspired by Ancalagons comment I've been looking at another old thread on dealing with the short rest/long rest dichotomy issue. It is an area that can help the issue but I don't think solves it.
Even if you say the 6th+ level paladin has used up all of their daily powers and doesn't rest they then end up a slightly below par fighter but with some auras. Compared to the full powered battlemaster fighter the battlemaster fighter has 4 dice of superiority, an action surge and a second wind. The battle master fighter is stronger against non magical foes because the paladin defences are largely useless, but probably not against spell casters. And that's comparing it to a paladin without any of its daily powers left.
Even forgetting smite - their now most fearsome ability. Each 5 points of lay on hands (that can be specifically managed so could for example be used to give 1hp to an unconscious person 5 times) that can also cure poison or disease. This ability is about equivalent to a 1st level spell. So by 5th level they not only have 4 first and 2 second level spells but another 6 first, plus a channel divinity.
Looking at similar abilities or level abilities for any other non spellcaster class just reinforces this issue. At 6th level when a paladin gets its Cha bonus to saves an open hand monk gets to heal 3hp a level self only...so a much weaker version of the first level paladin ability to lay on hands? At 7th when having already got the save aura they get an aura that might make then immune to charm a hunter ranger might gets to have advantage on fear saves.
How does it actually work in game? Well some players may play Paladins as selfless helping the party and not taking the spotlight but they can just be the frontline fighter in heavy armour with good saves swinging their sword, supplement their hit points with that sweet lay on hands boost, save most spells and then when the boss fight arrives go nova and out damage the other fighters by a significant margin.
I have a paladin in a long running slow exp campaign that is about to reach 6th level. He is played by someone who likes to maximise his characters abilities (not a criticism!) so I want to make sure he can play his character without making the fighter, barbarian and melee rogue feel second rate. I can up the rate of short rests that will help the fighter but that doesn't help the barbarian or the rogue.
I necro ed the thread because people have likely had more play since last time it lived and enworld often has some good thoughts on game balance issues
Don't forget Sacred Oath, it's the "feature" that, from the very beginning of D&D and all its new versions (called different things), defined what it means to be a Paladin and not just a Fighter. Read PHB pg 85-86... from 3rd level, you are expected to be living and breathing your vows. It's the reason you're given extra powers, over and above a Fighter. If you don't bother using it at your table, that's up to you, but much like the Cleric, you're missing the point if you just play them as just another a regular-Joe with some spells and stuff.
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