The State of D&D: Products, Psionics, Settings, & More - Page 17
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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Parmandur View Post
    It's easier to take a default metasetting out in a home game than to put it in, so WotC serves the greater need.
    I don't think "need" is the right concept - anyone who wants to run a "multiverse" game can do so using pre-existing material.

    I think it's about market demand.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by pemerton View Post
    I don't think "need" is the right concept - anyone who wants to run a "multiverse" game can do so using pre-existing material.

    I think it's about market demand.
    Well, certainly: the market gets what the market demands. And the Great Wheel, everything is connected multiverse is the one folks were given throughout TSR era. One of the major disconnects between WotC and the players, pre-Next, seems to have been that people kept playing in the 2E multiverse, even though WotC did little to support it, and WotC didn't realize until they moved explicitly against it in 4E.

  3. #163
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    ....and they(wotc) invented the concept of the RPG/IP tie-in novel to begin with.........
    Quag Keep. Dragonlance, hmm Nah. Wotc invented the concept.
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  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterthorn View Post
    Ah-Ha! An Immortal Edition!
    HERE WE ARE! GAMERS OF THE UNIVERSE! (INSERT MUSIC)
    FIGHTING FOR THE PRIZE
    IN THE END
    THERE CAN BE ONLY
    ONE!
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  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Futurity View Post
    Sword of Spirit is wrong (reading the DMG....particularly Chapter 1 and even Chapter 2 will verify this) but if you are playing "official canonical D&D" or whatever I guess you could argue that WotC's default universe implies FR and the other places do co-exist, linked by the planes. But again, the DMG provides extensive tools and advice on building universes that have nothing to do with any of that so YMMV.
    Specific evidence would be useful. Here's some:

    "WORLDS OF ADVENTURE
    ...
    The worlds of the Dungeons & Dragons game exist within a vast cosmos called the multiverse, connected in strange and mysterious ways to one another and to other planes of existence, such as the Elemental Plane of Fire and the Infinite Depths of the Abyss. Within this multiverse are an endless variety of worlds. Many of them have been published as official settings for the D&D game. The legends of the Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Dark Sun, Mystara, and Eberron settings are woven together in the fabric of the multiverse. Alongside these worlds are hundreds of thousands more, created by generations of D&D players for their own games. And amid all the richness of the multiverse, you might create a world of your own." (emphasis in original) - PHB 5

    "THE GREAT WHEEL
    The default cosmological arrangement presented in the Player's Handbook visualizes the planes as a group of concentric circles..." (emphasis mine) - DMG 44

    Of course, they make it clear that you are encouraged to do whatever you want for you home game, as evidenced by rules for creating your own version of the multiverse (Chapter 2 DMG), and statements that your version of the official settings might differ from the published versions (multiple places). Here's one you might like:

    "But if your campaign takes place on one of these world [examples of the official ones were given immediately prior to text], it belongs to your DM--you might imagine it as one of thousands of parallel versions of the world, which might diverge wildly from the published versions." - PHB 300

    I never claimed otherwise.

    What I claimed is that they have said that it is true (by default and officially of course--how could they claim what is true for our homebrew games?) that all of these worlds exist within the same multiverse, which I have now provided explicit textual evidence for.

    I'm not sure what else we could validly expect from them. They've given us guidelines for creating our own multiverses, they've given us an official default inclusive multiverse, they've told us that it can be interpreted--in setting--in different ways on different worlds, and as bonuses they've told us that our own versions of published worlds are parallel versions that might differ (which is a neat little edition which allows you feel like you are still using the default multiverse even if your elves are short old-school like), and they've even implied that our homebrew worlds that we choose to set in the multiverse semi-officially count as part of it the same as published settings.

    Anything else would be catering to our individual whims at the expense of providing good options for others.
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  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Parmandur View Post
    One of the major disconnects between WotC and the players, pre-Next, seems to have been that people kept playing in the 2E multiverse, even though WotC did little to support it, and WotC didn't realize until they moved explicitly against it in 4E.
    What does support mean, here?

    It mostly seems to mean publish stuff that gives voice to the multiverse. It's not about mechanics, after all - 3E had mechanics for the multiverse (in MoP and DDG); and 4e had the same (in the MoP, which included mechanics for the Great Wheel).

    That's the distinction between publishing stuff which can be rendered multiversal, and affirming the multiverse, that I mentioned in an earlier post.

    There's a strong desire, in the market, for certain story elements not only to be published, but to be official/"canon".

    EDIT: I think this can be seen in @Sword of Spirit's post just above mine.

    I also have to admit that, reading what Sword of Spirit quotes, my first interpretation would be that "the multiverse" here is a type of metagame conceit - ie there is a "multiverse" of D&D games and gameworld, some published by WotC and most created by players for their own games, and together these constitute the "worlds" of D&D, somewhat analogously to the ways in which a body of works might constitute an artistic school or movement.

    But I wouldn't naturally interpret this concept of a "multiverse" as having in-fiction meaning, such that the default assumption is that the world of my D&D games is part of the same (imagined) cosmos as the world of (say) Parmandur's. The link between my gameworlds and Parmandur's is a metagame link - we use our worlds for the purposes of playing (more-or-less) similar fantasy RPGs. But that isn't a property of the worlds themselves within the fiction.
    Last edited by pemerton; Wednesday, 15th November, 2017 at 07:08 AM.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Sword of Spirit View Post
    Specific evidence would be useful. Here's some:

    -snip-

    Anything else would be catering to our individual whims at the expense of providing good options for others.
    I'm not sure you and I have a beef. But your original post had some other poster (no time to dig) spiralling out the deep end on the idea that he was locked in to some perceptually limited view from WotC of the game. My point to him was that the interpretation you provided in that post didn't jive (and by inference, for him to stop freaking out)....as your own example cited demonstrates. I have no issues here myself, D&D does what I want it to and I have no confusion about that.
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  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by jasper View Post
    ....and they(wotc) invented the concept of the RPG/IP tie-in novel to begin with.........
    Quag Keep. Dragonlance, hmm Nah. Wotc invented the concept.
    Well that is true, But Quag Keep was not a marketed IP written specifically as a tie-in. It was an author writing from the point of reference of the gaming world she liked/experienced and then getting it published. I read Quag Keep ages ago and did not even realize it's history until decades later, but I was never confused about what the first Dragonlance and FR novels were intended for.

    Hell, Quag Keep is more like fascinating hidden history than anything else. But what it wasn't was a published and commissioned novel from TSR.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Futurity View Post
    Well that is true, But Quag Keep was not a marketed IP written specifically as a tie-in. It was an author writing from the point of reference of the gaming world she liked/experienced and then getting it published. I read Quag Keep ages ago and did not even realize it's history until decades later, but I was never confused about what the first Dragonlance and FR novels were intended for.

    Hell, Quag Keep is more like fascinating hidden history than anything else. But what it wasn't was a published and commissioned novel from TSR.
    Thieves world books, thieves game.
    Star Trek Show, star trek books,Star trek cartoon, Star Fleet Battles.
    Hot Wheels, Hot Wheels cartoon.
    Star Wars movies, Star Wars Christmas Special, Star Wars comics. Of course Lucas then started the multiple canon stuff.
    I think Wotc was late to party about IP tie ins

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by pemerton View Post
    I don't think "need" is the right concept - anyone who wants to run a "multiverse" game can do so using pre-existing material.
    But but I want the complete book of left hand spell cosmic caster, castes, cases, and cooks book. It must be "official" and "canon" or my players will cry. You could write the cross over were Tasselholf, meets the Hoff, Nexlix the Iron chief on the Planet of Sand witches.

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