D&D 5E I feel like there is a problem with ability score bonuses.

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
There are better game systems out there, but they lack the name recognition of D&D, and are thus harder to find players for.

Gygax & company did an excellent job capturing the imaginations of thousands of people like us, and creating a new genre of games for people to enjoy. For that I am eternally grateful to him.

I just wish they had been better at game design, so that D&D was built on a more solid foundation and was not burdened by so many legacies that make so little sense. I know that is easier to say in hindsight than it was to see in the moment, and games are much more sophisticated now, but the core problems with D&D are too baked in to change, and without D&D evolving the whole hobby stagnates.

It is like the NFL. There have been other leagues (USFL, CFL, XFL, WFL and college football) that have done some things better, but none of that matters because the NFL is still KING.


This is very true, and unfortunately, the D&D fan community at large is extreme resistant to change. 4th Edition really tried to be the next evolution in D&D, the same way 3rd Edition did for AD&D, but the fans rejected it as not feeling like D&D. And it had a lot of problems, but it also had a lot of great ideas that WotC was too eager to throw out with the bath water. I’d really like to see a version of D&D that continued in the direction Essentials was headed in instead of rolling back to 3.X design and iterating on that like 5E did.
 

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Salamandyr

Adventurer
Yeah, my tongue was pretty far over in my cheek about WEG's truly excellent D6 system. But one of the things I like is that there's a disconnect between the numbers, and what those numbers have to mean, as it were.

I think part of the problem is, the human NPC's in the monster manual also have these great stats. There's also the problem that the movie actors who play many of our favorite fantasy heroes don't themselves look like they have 18 Strength scores (understandable, since their actual prime requisite is Charisma).

Think about it...we watch James Bond, who looks like he has a 13 Strength, tops, fight Odd Job, who has the 18 strength and come out on top. We watch anime, where characters who look like 12 year olds win fights against monsters. Even our D&D books are likewise less and less filled with mesomorphic supermen, unless they're 3 foot tall and covered with hair.

In our stories, the wizards are often bumbling, the thieves are often clumsy, and the fighters are usually farmboy's who barely know a sword from a broom stick. And D&D expects all warriors to lift like Arnold, all thieves to move like Mary Lou Retton, and all Wizards to have brains that put Hawking to shame...even as apprentices.

It might help to think of one's attributes as a blend of natural ability and training. So that Han Solo's 18 dexterity (necessary to be a great pilot and quick shot) is less about being natural as dextrous as Daredevil, and instead a representation of his general training with all skills involving dexterity.

EDIT: As a personal preference, I like the way D&D does it (rules-wise, not art-wise). I want all my fighters to be bare chested he-men, all my wizards to be able to tell you the geneology of every monster you've ever imagined, and all my thieves to be able to pick the pockets of the Cisco Kid...but I also think the world ought to look like a Frazetta painting, and I understand that others prefer things differently.
 
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Saeviomagy

Adventurer
Skill training doesn’t outshine Ability Modifier nearly as much as it did in 3e. That means Ability Scores are even more important in this edition because not only do they tie into every conceivable action, they also account for a much larger proportion of your bonus to any given action. And with base attack bonus being combined with skill proficiency bonus, that goes for attacks as well..

This isn't quite true - ability scores ARE the biggest way you can influence your rolls, but they're actually less important than in 3e, because of what has happened to DCs and modifiers.

In 3e, having a +4 modifier (through whatever) meant that you automatically succeeded at easy tasks. In 5e, it does not - you still end up with a 25% chance of failure. In 3e, you could enter a more dangerous situation knowing that your stat meant you weren't actually taking a risk. In 5e, you're going to die pretty quickly doing that. In 3e, higher proficiency modifiers meant that effect continued on up the levels: your barbarian is going to be able to try that hard climb with a fatal penalty at second level, knowing that they're not going to die. At 10th they're hauling themselves up a brick wall over lava, again confident that they can't actually screw up enough to fall. They can be confident and heroic.

So your stats changed what was mundane for your character.

In 5e, they don't - they just bump the numbers about by a few percent.
 
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5ekyu

Hero
BookBarbarian we are of similar mindsets I think. I have seen the new point buy and 20max schemes to do a great job at rewarding esp early on the many 14s approach. IMO it is especially dependent on the types of campaign and challenges as I said earlier.

One underlying under the hood truth is that outside of forums blather in actual play the challenges the GM provide drive PC design and the PC design drives the challenges the GM provides. Nothing speaks to this more than the high output versus diversity in options trade offs.

Wiseblood if it is more of an amorphous discontent and not a solid mechanical problem, of preference maybe an equally amorphous non-mechanical approach would be the key. Does not follow logic to make a significant HARD change to fix a SOFT problem, right? Making a hard change risks breaking hard things, beyond what's needed for soft fix.

Seems to me, there is no real way to have point buy and array not produce "within 4 point range" for a package based around a stat if the whole stat range is basically 8 wide at start and mostly only 12 wide at the end, right?

Is it really bothering that the few and rare 20th level drawn based crushers wind up being in the top 33% of brazen scores?

Also, if you are using point buy or array, the points have to go somewhere. Pull down the top stats to lower levels, make it not worth climbing, everybody would end up with middle scores and even more same score issues, not less.



So, rather than making high abilities not matter or matter less across the board in a hard change, make a soft change.

Give everybody a bonus 2d6 rolled for each stat boost. Rolled per stat, not rolled and assigned. So one brain guy might get +12 and another +3 on strength, soft strength.

Soft scores play cosmetic roles only. They don't affect any attack rolls or anything. Your "hard" attributes are more like upper bounds on all those other things you think are fine will the actual score is highly variable.

So one brain stomping character might have strength 29 and another strength 22 but both have cap strength at 18 for all the fiddly bits that seriously impact play.

The key is as long as everybody has the same points to spend, more or less, and choices on where every point goes nothing is going to create wider than 4 common distributions when you look at characters and group them by "those who chose the same attribute based package". Pulling down the need to push for high scores only results in more equal scores, not more diverse ones.

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5ekyu

Hero
About this...

"Think about it...we watch James Bond, who looks like he has a 13 Strength, tops, fight Odd Job, who has the 18 strength and come out on top."

Yes we see the smaller quicker but win the fight overall but we don't see him win a strength contest. You are describing seems loosely like a fight between a fighter or barbarian and a rogue. Each wins with different approaches.

I wish sometimes the would replace class names with just art.

The "barbarian class" is not the same as "barbarians the adversaries." A "warrior" adversary might be a fighter, a rogue, a barbarian or ranger or other "classes"

A class is just a collection of capabilities tied together by (mostly) ability choices - at least for the core ones.

A thief might be someone who kicks in doors or mugs folks or threatens them to take there stuff or he might sneak in pick locks etc. First is likely high STR fighter or barbarian "class" while the latter is likely more " Rogue" class.



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pming

Legend
Hiya!

Go use the BECMI stat ranges and adjustments. (BECMI = Basic / Expert / Companion / Master / Immortal D&D boxed sets from the 80's). You can get them all as PDF from rpgnow. If you JUST want the stat stuff...just pick up the Immortals box set; it's got stats from 1 to 100.

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
In 3e, having a +4 modifier (through whatever) meant that you automatically succeeded at easy tasks. In 5e, it does not - you still end up with a 25% chance of failure.
What you're saying, here, is that 3e called a DC 5 easy and 5e calls it a DC 10. That's not really saying much about how bonuses worked in either edition. In both editions, stats give you the same mod, to the same d20 check. The difference is in how those checks scale outside the modifiers. In 3e, a fighter could get a 20 BAB, and a wiz no more than 10 - in 5e, they both top out at +6 proficiency. In 3e a rogue could come up with 24 ranks in each of 8+ skills, while a fighter trying to cross class some the same skills would manage 12 ranks in 2 of them - in 5e, the rogue gets more skills than the fighter, and can manage a +12 proficiency in some to the fighter's +6. That's bounded accuracy and it base leaves stats a more important consideration.

In 3e, you could enter a more dangerous situation knowing that your stat meant you weren't actually taking a risk. In 5e, you're going to die pretty quickly doing that.
Out of the lowest levels, 5e gets moderately forgiving. Relatively few SoDs, monsters aren't too overwhelming, deaths saves. 3e could be brutal, not just the SoDs, damage could go off the rails, too.

So your stats changed what was mundane for your character.

In 5e, they don't - they just bump the numbers about by a few percent.
The range of plausible stats is mostly narrower in 5e. 8-20, mostly. In 3e you could, through stacking bonuses get much higher stats, and it was expected, via buffing, wealth/level, & make buy.

This is very true, and unfortunately, the D&D fan community at large is extreme resistant to change. 4th Edition really tried to be the next evolution in D&D, the same way 3rd Edition did for AD&D, but the fans rejected it as not feeling like D&D.
3e often felt more like it was riffing off D&D than AD&D, to me, while 4e reminded me a bit of 1e (just a bit: for instance, returning to monsters having different stat blocks and fewer options compared to PCs).

I guess, at bottom, D&D was a fad, and it's having a come-back, and that /must/ depend on a certain level of evoking the game at it's most popular, whether the results are good or bad in an objective sense, that they're familiar can drive success.

This is what I mean. Imagine a fictional world. Now Imagine a character like Conan, imagine a legion of Conans. Imagine if every opponent Conan faught was as strong as he and the only difference between them was gear and a meager +1 to hit from proficiency.

I love Conan, but as things are in 5e he would be just another PC. I understand PCs are exceptional, except they aren't because their foes are just like them +6 to hit d12+4 damage.
Bounded Accuracy does leave less room to differentiate via numbers, true.


1st level PC has 0 experience points. They have skills and proficiencies but they are inexperienced.
They are beginners.
1st level PCs could be, or not, it depends on their background. A soldier background might, like a 1e 1st-level fighter, be a 'veteran' (been in at least one actual battle). The Folk Hero has certainly done something, maybe not a lot, but one specific feat, to get his status. The 5e 'apprentice tier' terminology, though, certainly suggests inexperience.


As I said it is a feeling that soemthing is wrong not imperical fact. What bothers me is homogenous stats. Why are they homogenous? Because it's advantageous to have higher stats. Because the stat bonuses are dramatic and important.
Because there's a limited practical range for stat values. If you take the array or use the point buy variant, the minimum stat is 8. The cap is 20. In-between, only the even numbers make a significant mechanical difference. Mods thus range from -1 to +5. That's not an enormous range.

You could try to maximize the variety of PC stats via a variant chargen method. For instance, if you had 6 players you could generate stats by having 36 cards, six for each stat, each stat having one each of 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, & 18. You could randomly deal out the cards of each among the players. That way, each character has a different score from each & every other character in every stat. They'd have to pick a class to match their stats, of course...

...and, those are really pretty high stats, you'll probably want to skip ASIs. Allow feats, instead.

No, wait, racial bonuses could still produce duplicate stats.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I guess, at bottom, D&D was a fad, and it's having a come-back, and that /must/ depend on a certain level of evoking the game at it's most popular, whether the results are good or bad in an objective sense, that they're familiar can drive success.
I don’t agree, at least not if you judge success by sales. According to WotC, each new edition has sold better than the last. The reason 4e was perceived as a failure is not because it didn’t sell as well as 3e, but because it didn’t outsell 3e as much as they had projected based on the increasing popularity of fantasy fiction, nerd culture, and gaming at the time. There were a variety of factors involved in this failure to grow the brand, including the rise of Paizo and splitting of the fan base between 4e and Pathfinder, as well as the decline of printed media. Now, 5e did win back a lot of lapsed fans by emulating earlier editions, and that was a big part of its initial success, but its continued growth would be better attributed to the rise of streaming media. If it hadn’t been for shows like Critical Role and Dice, Camera, Action, Hazbro probably wouldn’t have approved the more rapid publishing schedule WotC has adopted lately, instead continuing the initial plan of keeping 5e very light on printed books, and relying almost entirely on merchandise to monetize the brand.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
I don’t agree, at least not if you judge success by sales. According to WotC, each new edition has sold better than the last.
Yeah, I'm not sure how credible that is nor in what context. Maybe compared to the nadir of 2e when WotC acquired TSR, each edition has progressively sold better. But, compared to the height of the fad in the early 80s? I don't think so. There was a thread here quoting a WotC statistic that 5e was on the verge of having moved 750k books, about 3 years into it's run. Morrus dug up an old article from the 80s which mentioned D&D moving that many books /per year/.

The reason 4e was perceived as a failure is not because it didn’t sell as well as 3e, but because it didn’t outsell 3e as much as they had projected based on the increasing popularity of fantasy fiction, nerd culture, and gaming at the time. There were a variety of factors involved in this failure to grow the brand... including the decline of printed media.
It was a veritable perfect storm, starting with the worst recession since the great depression and not exactly getting better from there. ;P
Now, 5e did win back a lot of lapsed fans by emulating earlier editions, and that was a big part of its initial success, but its continued growth would be better attributed to the rise of streaming media
Roughly based on those crumbs of data, above, there are probably still many more lapsed/one-time D&Ders out there than there are returned, continuing & new D&Ders /combined/.

Nor does the critical importance of continuing & returning fans rest only on their numbers. When long-time & returning DMs who have the experience to run a game like 1e or 5e /well/ run for new players, they both give them a better first-play experience, and a sense of connection with the hobby & it's history. That can also make the game - simultaneously/paradoxically - more accessible, and yet feeling more like an exclusive club. ;) It's not unprecedented when it comes to mainstreaming a nerd-culture thing - if you make it more accessible and the hardcore fans hate it vocally/publicallly it doesn't matter that it's accessible because would-be fans are driven away from even trying it, if you make it appeal to the hardcore fans it's less accessible but at least potential new fans try it.
 
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