D&D 5E [5E] Frog God Games KS of Tome of Horroes

redrick

First Post
I've backed Borderlands Provinces (both hardcovers), the Blight (HC and all pdfs), and Quests of Doom 3 (HC). I own hardcovers of Bards Gate 5e, Quests of Doom vols. 1 + 2 (5e), Quests of Doom 2 (5e), The Northlands Saga (PF), Sword of Air (PF), Cults of the Sundered Kingdoms (PF), Stoneheart Valley (PF), The Lost City of Barakus (PF), Slumbering Tsar (PF), and Razor Coast (PF). I can take a picture of them all on my shelf if it helps prove that I'm a fan.

I say this as a fan who has spents hundreds of dollars on their products. I will not purchase another FGG product or back another of their Kickstarters until I am made aware of proper resolution toward Bill Webb's behavior. At the very least, I would like to be made aware that Mr. Webb has attended some form of harassment training from someone not connected to FGG as well as some form of treatment for his drinking. I went into more detail in the thread following ENworld's original reporting on this issue and I sent that message on toward Matt Finch as well.

I want to support FGG. I want to back Tome of Horrors (and Rappan Athuk), but I cannot support a company that allows such behavior without appropriate consequences. I am not asking for Mr. Webb to lose his job or position. I am not asking for FGG to have to close their doors. I am merely asking for FGG to take actionable steps towards preventing the type of harassment that happened from happening again.

This.

I don't have quite the wall of hardcovers that [MENTION=20005]Matthan[/MENTION] does, but I've purchased a good number of FGG products, both print and PDF, and I don't know that there is a single campaign of 5e that I've run that hasn't included some content from one of their products. But until I see some actual actions from FGG, I won't be buying any more of their products.
 
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CatholicFan

First Post
At this juncture, I’d suggest no news is good news. They didn’t say anything as their last Kickstarter wrapped, and haven’t said anything as this one launched. They’ve also attended GameHole Con since then. I mean, I’m sure another statement would be collectively cathartic, but isn’t the real goal to not have further incidents? If they’re doing that even without a public obeisance, is the goal not accomplished? This thread is about a Kickstarter, and there were dozens of pages discussing the subject before. Is there anything left to be said until they either make some kind of statement or there is further cause to discuss? The last thread was locked for devolving into personal attacks, it’d be nice to keep this one open for those of us that want to discuss the product without communally relitigating the problem all over.
 

fjw70

Adventurer
At this juncture, I’d suggest no news is good news. They didn’t say anything as their last Kickstarter wrapped, and haven’t said anything as this one launched. They’ve also attended GameHole Con since then. I mean, I’m sure another statement would be collectively cathartic, but isn’t the real goal to not have further incidents? If they’re doing that even without a public obeisance, is the goal not accomplished? This thread is about a Kickstarter, and there were dozens of pages discussing the subject before. Is there anything left to be said until they either make some kind of statement or there is further cause to discuss? The last thread was locked for devolving into personal attacks, it’d be nice to keep this one open for those of us that want to discuss the product without communally relitigating the problem all over.

Nope. These things need to stay in the spotlight until action is taken. No news could be things are being swept under the rug or the problem has been fixed. We don't know.
 

CatholicFan

First Post
Nope. These things need to stay in the spotlight until action is taken. No news could be things are being swept under the rug or the problem has been fixed. We don't know.


Does "keeping the spotlight on it" mean discussing it in every thread that mentions Frog God?

Action was taken. Frog God responded to it, Paizo responded to it, and the victim responded to it. I understand you and others want more, but I don't think any more is coming from the parties involved. Your choice to boycott their products is, of course, your prerogative. Me? I can buy a book from them and still say I don't approve of sexual harassment. General boycotts are a rabbit hole. I'm happy to speak out and vote with my wallet against supporting content I don't like, such as the Paizo demon book that's been talked about elsewhere. At some point, though, general boycotts hurt well outside of the scope they was intended to affect. I'm not for that.
 

fjw70

Adventurer
Does "keeping the spotlight on it" mean discussing it in every thread that mentions Frog God?

Action was taken. Frog God responded to it, Paizo responded to it, and the victim responded to it. I understand you and others want more, but I don't think any more is coming from the parties involved. Your choice to boycott their products is, of course, your prerogative. Me? I can buy a book from them and still say I don't approve of sexual harassment. General boycotts are a rabbit hole. I'm happy to speak out and vote with my wallet against supporting content I don't like, such as the Paizo demon book that's been talked about elsewhere. At some point, though, general boycotts hurt well outside of the scope they was intended to affect. I'm not for that.

I choose not to support organizations that choose to tolerate sexual harassment. I don’t call for a boycott but am glad to see this issue not die as long as the harasser is still associated with the company. Harassers want these things to just go away and not be mentioned anymore.
 

CatholicFan

First Post
I choose not to support organizations that choose to tolerate sexual harassment. I don’t call for a boycott but am glad to see this issue not die as long as the harasser is still associated with the company. Harassers want these things to just go away and not be mentioned anymore.

Who says Frog God Games tolerates sexual harassment? I've seen nobody make that statement: not Frog God, not Paizo, and not the victim.
 


fjw70

Adventurer
Who says Frog God Games tolerates sexual harassment? I've seen nobody make that statement: not Frog God, not Paizo, and not the victim.

The founder of FGG has been identified as a sexual harasser. As far as I know FGG has taken no steps to sanction him or taken steps to make sure it doesn't happen again. Look at other people that have been identified as sexual harassers lately. They are losing jobs and their professional ties are being cut. That is the way to show you don't tolerate that behavior.
 

CatholicFan

First Post
Well, suit yourselves. I've seen enough in the aforementioned statements to believe that they've addressed the issue. If you haven't, then that's okay, too. We can agree to disagree. I've said my piece and won't be addressing it anymore. If this thread just becomes a rehash of the locked thread, oh well. It's just a forum and I don't plan to get myself overly worked up. No matter what you argue on the internet, you lose.

Anyways, the Kickstarter funded last hour. I'm not an expert, but given the first day funding, I'm guessing this ends 40-50k? It'd be nice to see it hit the $100k to get the adventure hooks, the monster cards, and all the extra monsters statted out. I guess we'll see what day 2 looks like to get a better gauge.

Anyone know how this ending right after Christmas affects a Kickstarter? Are people more likely to spend monies given from Christmas on something like this or are they all tapped out and less likely to drop coin on a project?
 

Matthan

Explorer
Does "keeping the spotlight on it" mean discussing it in every thread that mentions Frog God?

Action was taken. Frog God responded to it, Paizo responded to it, and the victim responded to it. I understand you and others want more, but I don't think any more is coming from the parties involved. Your choice to boycott their products is, of course, your prerogative. Me? I can buy a book from them and still say I don't approve of sexual harassment. General boycotts are a rabbit hole. I'm happy to speak out and vote with my wallet against supporting content I don't like, such as the Paizo demon book that's been talked about elsewhere. At some point, though, general boycotts hurt well outside of the scope they was intended to affect. I'm not for that.

Yes, it does mean continuing to bring it up until appropriate action has been taken. The action that was taken was Mr. Webb was 'talked to' by Mr. Finch, his friend, colleague, and business partner. I am not convinced that Mr. Finch is the appropriate person to have that conversation. Frog God's response was not enough. I have no issue with Paizo. I understand the victim did not want collateral damage to impact her friends who work at FGG. I don't want that either, but I only have one way to effectively communicate my desire for a more appropriate response to Mr. Webb's behavior.

Mr. Webb is the CEO of the company. Every product that they produce enriches him. It is not a matter of content within the books. I'm a fan of their content. The issue is that I do not want my money to support someone that harasses people with no consequences. Until FGG has Mr. Webb go through an appropriate consequence then I can only give what measure of consequence that is available to me, namely the withholding of my money and my repetition of a call for appropriate action. I understand that form of boycott has collateral damage, but since he is the CEO, I cannot pick and choose products. They all enrich him and I will not be a party to rewarding that behavior.

I will add, without trying to be political, that I don't know of any great social change for the good that was accomplished by people shrugging and saying that an inappropriate behavior being given a talking to was as good as it gets so lets go back to the status quo.

What I am asking for is not hard. Honestly, it's the bare minimum of what should be considered. If Mr. Webb worked in any other company and had a complaint against him for harassment, he would be asked to attend some form of sexual harassment training. If Mr. Webb worked in any other company and had a reputation for drinking to much when representing the company to the public, he would be asked to attend some form of treatment to curb his alcohol consumption. That is, if he wasn't fired. However, the victim expressed that she did not wish to see him fired. Honestly, Mr. Webb has had less consequences for being drunk and harassing a woman while he was representing his business at an industry event than a person who receives a speeding ticket for doing six miles over the limit.

I would love to purchase this book. $50 for a book full of monsters sounds awesome. I would love to support Rappan Athuk. I'm kind of itching to run a dungeon crawl. However, Mr. Webb has to experience some kind of consequence for his behavior, and his employees and business partners should care enough for their friend, their business, and their reputation to go the extra mile to make sure their friend is not in a situation again where things might go worse and restore trust within the community they've built.
 

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