D&D 5E Mental prison; power creep, typo or working as intended

mellored · Dec 8, 2017

jaelis said:
IMO if it didn't end with forced movement it would be a stronger spell. Keep the baddie blind and restrained while you drag it into the firepit or off the cliff.

If you can manage to do that in a minute, and before the enemies smack the wizard to hard, then you deserve the win.

jgsugden · Dec 8, 2017

If you're immune to illusions, this is 27.5 damage. Let's not forget that nuance. There are a lot of creatures immune to charm out there.

Remember that to force movement, you are likely sacrificing efficiency (or you previously devoted resources, as in the case with warlock invocations) to make it happen. That 55 damage is not free.

This is a competitive spell, but not automatic. Far from it. Warlocks get 1 spell - and there are not a lot of great options - but I would still likely take other options - I prefer Arcane Gate for a variety of reasons (underestimated as a versatile spell).

Stalker0 · Dec 9, 2017

People are really focusing on the movement aspect, but don’t forget the damage is triggered if the target attacks.

A monster that can’t attack may as well be dead

mellored · Dec 9, 2017

Stalker0 said:
People are really focusing on the movement aspect, but don’t forget the damage is triggered if the target attacks.

A monster that can’t attack may as well be dead

Banishment is a level 4 spell. 1 Cha save, gone for 1 minute.

jaelis · Dec 9, 2017

mellored said:
Banishment is a level 4 spell. 1 Cha save, gone for 1 minute.

True, perhaps mental prison is too high a level in comparison

But of course the damage is not insignificant. Also with mental prison you can keep attacking the creature while it is trapped.

Stalker0 · Dec 9, 2017

mellored said:
Banishment is a level 4 spell. 1 Cha save, gone for 1 minute.

Agreed. This spell either makes you as feeble as if you were gone, or does a lot of damage.

And banishment is very strong for its level too!

Stalker0 · Dec 10, 2017

Other important note, the target can’t see or hear past the illusion. So that eliminates a lot of ranged attacks, and sight based teleports

Saeviomagy · Dec 10, 2017

My read is that the spell does an amount of damage that is still less than that of disintegrate even if the full measure is dealt.

At the same time, it
* consumes your concentration
* will only cause minimal damage if your foe is one of the 11% of monsters immune to charm
* will only cause minimal damage if your concentration is broken
* will basically never CC the target unless there's no combat happening OR the target would die to the spell
* still lets the target act while avoiding the damage

I took a random flick through some high power threats, and there's a lot of things that are going to either just take 5d10 and ignore the rest of the spell because they have truesight or are uncharmable. Then there's a lot of things that are going to just sit in it and keep hitting you because they can see through it and have functional ranged attacks.

Personally I think it ends up in a niche where it's just not a good enough damage spell to be a damage spell, and it's not a good CC spell at all.

Stalker0 · Dec 11, 2017

Saeviomagy said:
My read is that the spell does an amount of damage that is still less than that of disintegrate even if the full measure is dealt.

At the same time, it
* consumes your concentration
* will only cause minimal damage if your foe is one of the 11% of monsters immune to charm
* will only cause minimal damage if your concentration is broken
* will basically never CC the target unless there's no combat happening OR the target would die to the spell
* still lets the target act while avoiding the damage

I took a random flick through some high power threats, and there's a lot of things that are going to either just take 5d10 and ignore the rest of the spell because they have truesight or are uncharmable. Then there's a lot of things that are going to just sit in it and keep hitting you because they can see through it and have functional ranged attacks.

Personally I think it ends up in a niche where it's just not a good enough damage spell to be a damage spell, and it's not a good CC spell at all.

The point about Truesight is interesting. That does make you immune to visual illusions, and all of the illusionary effects of the spells are noted as illusionary. So agree that does limit how many monsters this is effective against.

That said...you can't look at a spell's power based on the worst targets, but on the best ones. An 11th level caster with access to this spell has plenty of spells to choose from, so if they are casting it they are going to pick a target that they will get a great bang for their buck on.

The best targets, are melee centric brutes with low int and no resistance to illusions. And there are plenty of those in the book.

Saeviomagy · Dec 11, 2017

Stalker0 said:
The point about Truesight is interesting. That does make you immune to visual illusions, and all of the illusionary effects of the spells are noted as illusionary. So agree that does limit how many monsters this is effective against.

Well, truesight specifically says you succeed at any save against an illusion, so you still suffer the initial 5d10 damage, you just don't suffer the secondary effects.

That said...you can't look at a spell's power based on the worst targets, but on the best ones. An 11th level caster with access to this spell has plenty of spells to choose from, so if they are casting it they are going to pick a target that they will get a great bang for their buck on.

The best targets, are melee centric brutes with low int and no resistance to illusions. And there are plenty of those in the book.

Sure, and in that circumstance they get a spell that does 6 damage more than disintegrate on average, in exchange for their concentration. That's not awesome. There's any number of lower level spells that could take care of such foes much more easily.