D&D 5E Setting Party level vs an Ancient Red Dragon

Reynard said:

I went with 9th. I want the PCs to feel powerful but not necessarily be gods. My one big concern is the player that plays the wizard is a consumate power gamer (in the best way) so those 5th level spells are going to be an issue. Note that they are using existing characters that they will level from 7th to 9th, so they can't build dragon slaying specific characters.

As to the environment and minions: it is going to be a city flowing with lava and spewing noxious vapors and crawling with salamanders and mephits. The dragon will have both burrows and perches in order to choose between aerial assault and more tunnel fighting. I am going to keep the fight moving from one location to the another (until they manage to lock it down).

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Okay, sounds good! I'm sure you can easily challenge a level 9 group even of this size with that kind of encounter in place. And there's lots of room for adjustment in there....if things are going too well or too poorly for the PCs, you can increase/decrease the minions, and so on.

Let us know how it goes.

I think 9th is fine, especially since they are getting prep time. A party with prep time and some creative thinking can do amazing things that no theorycrafting here will ever account for.

Just a warning. Your players may try to prebuff for the fight by having helpful NPCs cast spells on them. Bare in mind those concentration spells exist for a reason. If the party is bypassing that, even with low level spells, it can be a incredible buff. In my 20th level last adventure, I allowed the party to get help from a large group of allies, who casted a number of 1st and 2nd level spells. I couldn't believe how strong those buffs were in actual play. I'm not saying that's bad to do...in fact its the kind of prep that might make sense for this group....just don't underestimate it.

hawkeyefan said:

King of the hill? Not sneak? cowardly and boring tactics? These are simply your opinion.

I cannot think of one example of a dragon in any kind of literature or pop culture that landed in front of its enemies and then took turns hitting each other. Can you give us one example that supports your take on the dragon?

Because to me it sounds like you want the dragon to be something other than what it is...which is fine, but it's a different situation than the monster's design failing to achieve what it's meant to.



Flight, speed, reach, breath weapon, legendary actions, legendary resistance, lair actions...these are all in the stat block. Having the dragon land and stand there essentially removes some of these things from the dragon's stats. Why have reach if you simply let everyone run right up to you? Why have flight if you're just going to land and go claw to axe with everyone?

It sounds like you're playing a dragon like a hill giant and then you're disappointed in the results.

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Okay, mr smartypants, give us a better example of a monster that you feel is true to canon as King of the Hill.

(And don't give me simple brutes like giants)

Then, not everyone thinks the way like you do.

Have a look at
http://themonstersknow.com/dragon-tactics-part-1/
In summary, whites and red stand their ground, fighting. One supremely stupid, the other supremely arrogant. Blacks, greens and blacks, you would have much more of a point.

Then, you're misrepresenting what I'm saying. I am definitely not suggesting it shouldn't use what's in the stat block.

I am merely saying it is dead on its feet even when it does. What you're saying is that it also needs to frustrate players by flying out of visual range? That's just a crappy boring tactic. Have you seen what a level-appropriate party can do? (That is, a party perhaps five levels lower than the dragon; don't want you go hide behind "oh, the xp totals make this an easy fight, better give it some allies")

The designers sure don't seem to.

And if it was just a single (type of) monster, I would have written it off as a simple mistake.

But 5E is endemically carebearian. Almost no monsters make a challenge for properly played groups. They're laughably easy to shut down, since most of them have nothing but melee attacks (but no way to ensure the delivery of those attacks). Essentially, what you're doing is kiting them, only not simply by running around in a circle.

For single-digit CRs that might be fine, this edition being newbie friendly and all. But for CR 17? Not a chance.

So please stop denying the general - and very obvious - weakness of this edition's Monster Manual so we can get constructive!

All I can say is that a 9th level party wouldn't stand a chance against an ancient red dragon in my campaign, at least not with the groups I've played with.
[MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] mentioned some spells like fire shield, greater invis., otiluke's resilient sphere, phantasmal killer, watery sphere

Fire Shield - yes this will give 1 person DR, but it's self only. It's still 45 points fire damage unless they make the DC 24 dex save.

Invisibility - you are not automatically undetected, you still need to make stealth checks. Good luck against a creature with +16 perception.

Otilukes/Bigby's Hand/Force Cage/etc - will have no effect against a gargantuan creature.

Phantasmal Killer - they have a +9 wisdom save, but even if they fail it they could just ignore it until it goes away or use legendary resistance.

Melee types won't ever get close unless they can fly, and even then the dragon would just use his wing buffet and fly away. This is also assuming of course they have a way to negate fear with a wisdom save DC 21.

Maybe I'm just missing something, but most parties I would expect a TPK in 2-4 rounds. Then again I have been known to use rules for ballista damage where the dragon is dropping things like small houses on the party so maybe I just don't play fair.

CapnZapp said:

. . . so we can get constructive!

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I laughed.

I am rooting for the dragon against 10 level 9 PCs. At roughly 72 HP on average, I think that half of them might go down with the first breath weapon without resistance or evasion. This likely will be a game of rocket tag if the dragon gets its breath weapon to bear on multiple PCs (go dragon!) or it stands and fights (go PCs!). Good luck! Always nice to hear how these turn out.

Will this dragon have minions?

If the PCs aren't investing in some way to have *every* party member have some kind of fire resistance... I mean, come on. And every PC should have the ability to fly or good ranged attack. This is dragon fighting 101.

I'm interested in this as well. Did you say what the 10 characters were? I think it's important to know as well as will there be any minions or other monsters of the dragon's side?

How difficult do you want this to be? Do you want all 10 to win without any deaths or are you looking for an encounter that the group "wins" but loses the majority of the characters?

I know my 8 L10-11 PC walked all over Demogorgon like he was northing but he couldn't fly. I would think a dragon would probably do a lot of fly overs while using his breath weapon.

CapnZapp said:

But the "play it as an intelligent monster" bit is an old hackneyed trope. A red dragon is the king of the hill. It will not retreat. It will not sneak. And it will definitely not use cowardly (and frankly, boring, tactics) such as taking one party member and fleeing.

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A younger dragon with less than a hundred years on its belt might fall prey to the trap of its emotions, but I believe that it's important to keep in mind that an older dragon that has lived for far longer has the benefit of experience. Not XP experience, but the experience of situations where it has to make decisions concerning its own survival.

Having survived long enough to become an adult or ancient dragon means that the dragon has learned to do what it takes to keep itself alive, and that includes being cautious of adventurers and making sound judgements in combat.

To an elder dragon, "Honorable tactics" might just be an excuse for the weak to make themselves feel good about their own failure to win.