D&D 5E Warlock group think

Blue said:

The only thing that matters is the number of hits turned into misses.

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The problem here is that you need to cast Mage Armour before you know whether it will actually turn any hits into misses.

You can cast Shield after you know.

You haven't adjusted the math for this.

Here is an analogy to help you understand:

Mage Armour is playing a poker hand blind.
Shield is playing a poker hand after you see AA.

I have long argued against the conventional wisdom and made a thread addressing some of this with regard to blade pact in particular.

I do not like eldritch blast spamming myself. I prefer the invocations attached to eldritch blast that move opponents and control the field. It works perfectly, fine, just not my thing. I do not like disadvantage up close and like magic swords!

I almost always take moderately armored (and now look forward to hexblade). I go for heavy weapons and often consider great weapon master (have had three blade pacts characters) all but one took this path.

The eldritch blast really does not become overwhelming until you get three blasts. Even then, you are getting ready to see lifedrinker. The math is really not there to back up EB's supposed overwhelming superiority. It is better at range but in our games, a group of four cannot make sure all characters are melee free at a distance. Disadvantage makes EB less superior even before comparable damage from melee weapons comes into play.

Questions about hit points come up for blade pact as well. However, if you add in the occasional spell some difference is mitigated. What really boggles my mind is the concern about d8 for a more melee oriented warlock. Its one point a level different that a fighter. If it is con we are thinking about, true, you might have a lower con in lieu of charisma and strength if you go with heavy weapons. However, again are we talking about maybe two points a level also considering hit die? Is 20 hit points THAT different at 10th level?

I will get a lot of disagreement, and that is fine! I feel perfectly OK with blade pact warlocks.

But in the end, their flavor makes them worth it. If I am play a "suboptimal" character that I really like, and I survive, did I lose ANYTHING? I admit I like a challenge and this may have swayed my opinion.

ad_hoc said:

The problem here is that you need to cast Mage Armour before you know whether it will actually turn any hits into misses.

You can cast Shield after you know.

You haven't adjusted the math for this.

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NO, you can NOT cast Shield after you know it will turn a hit into a miss. All you can do do is know that you're going to be hit before casting - you have no idea if it will turn that hit into a miss. It's not even the most likely outcome unless the foes have a less than 50% chance to hit you.

And yes, there may be an adventuring day where there are no hits at all, so Shield is a net win. But the math clearly shows that ON AVERAGE Mage Armor is a net win in terms of slots if you are using one or the other. So that over your adventuring carrier if you need to rely on just Mage Armor or just Shield, Mage Armor will protect you more. (Standard assumptions: 6-8 combats per day, 65% change to hit, etc.)

Again, if you want to debate this, please show your math. Because the math I showed last post still stands. And your math needs to handle a full adventuring day since that's the duration of mage armor.

I'm currently playing a 7th level GOO Tomelock (and it's my first Warlock PC), and I largely agree with all this. The "concentration economy" is huge. I feel it especially because (as a Tomelock) I took Guidance, an at-will I can't use between encounters if I'm holding onto Hex. I dropped it as a spell a while ago.

Honestly the most painful thing about Warlocks isn't anything you mentioned; it's the limited number of spells known. The spellcasting is fairly well balanced with Wizard and Cleric as long as you get at least 1 SR/day. If you get 2 SRs it's downright luxurious to have that many high level slots. BUUUUTTTT, spell slots are only useful if you have a spell that's situationally appropriate.

My DM fixed this by giving Pact spells as bonus spells known, rather than just adding them to your spell list. This added just enough flexibility to the class that I usually have at least one spell to offer a situation. I still don't have as many spells to choose from as the Wizard or Cleric in the group, but this has hugely reduced the "I'm nothing but an Eldritch Blast canon" feeling.

I do think that the class is overly reliant on Eldritch Blast though. Other classes give you a big weapon or cantrip list to choose from, with all the choices having interesting trade-offs. e.g., "Do I want Reach or an AC bonus?", "Do I want d12 poison or d8 electric with occasional Advantage?", etc. But Warlocks? Always Eldritch Blast. I'd much rather they had gone with a more generic mechanic that allowed for greater customization.

Irda Ranger said:

I do think that the class is overly reliant on Eldritch Blast though. Other classes give you a big weapon or cantrip list to choose from, with all the choices having interesting trade-offs. e.g., "Do I want Reach or an AC bonus?", "Do I want d12 poison or d8 electric with occasional Advantage?", etc. But Warlocks? Always Eldritch Blast. I'd much rather they had gone with a more generic mechanic that allowed for greater customization.

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Create Bonfire + Toll the Dead is a pretty good cantrip arsenal to have as an alternative to Eldritch Blast.

ad_hoc said:

Create Bonfire + Toll the Dead is a pretty good cantrip arsenal to have as an alternative to Eldritch Blast.

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They're both interesting cantrips, but no, they aren't real fixes to the Warlock's EB fixation.

1. Damage type. Lots of things are immune or resistance to fire. Many to necrotic too. Almost nothing is resistant or immune to force.
2. Agonizing blast. d10+X beats every other damage die as long as your charisma modifier is a positive number.
3. "Other Invocations" like Forceful Blast only work with EB.

Nope, sorry.

Imagine, if you will, that the Ranger class had access to a special "heavy recurve bow" that did d12 damage. Sure, you can choose to use a regular longbow or heavy crossbow if you want, but would anyone deny that their "heavy recurve bow" is how the designers expect the class to be used? It's silly to pretend otherwise.

No, I'd have preferred more generic rules, like

1. "Warlocks always use a damage die one step higher than listed" or "Warlock cantrips always split into multiple beams per damage dice".
2. Agonizing Blast was just something you got automatically at 8th level.
3. Invocations like "Foreceful Blast" are recast as "Forceful Cantrip".

That way you have the full list of cantrips to choose from.

ad_hoc said:

I disagree with this. The other Patrons yield little in the way of out of combat utility. That mostly comes from invocations and spells.

The Hexblade provides a lot of combat ability so the Warlock can focus more on the invocations and spells that will help with exploration and social interaction.

In a standard 5e campaign, and indeed in D&D in general there will be combat.

Having telepathy to 30ft is not the game changer here for the other pillars.

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Seeming, calm emotions, dominate person, detect thoughts, clairvoyance and sending are all very useful out of combat. And although it's high level, so less relevant, create thrall is very powerful.

Even in combat I still prefer the fey pact as, IMO, sleep (at very low levels), faerie fire and improved invisibility compare favorably to Charisma for melee attacks and medium armor and "improved favored enemy" once per short rest.

ad_hoc said:

The Hexblade provides a lot of combat ability so the Warlock can focus more on the invocations and spells that will help with exploration and social interaction.

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Blade requires a 2-3 combat invocations to keep up with eldrich blast, and 1-2 feats to beat it in damage. So that's not adding to explortation or social interation, it's trading it away.

With the all the invocations and feats, hexblade runs pretty similar to a barbarian with darkness in place of rage (2d6+5+5, with advantage and half damage from attacks). But less hit points, and still some utility.


If you using hexblade with eldritch blast, then you basically have medium armor mastery. Good, but not strictly better than the load of THP you get from fiend, or the healing of celestial, or telepathy from GOO. All of which come with better spells. (arch fey only get's better spells). Particularly since you can dip for armor or take the feat.

Irda Ranger said:

They're both interesting cantrips, but no, they aren't real fixes to the Warlock's EB fixation.

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There is nothing to fix.

Damage type. Lots of things are immune or resistance to fire. Many to necrotic too. Almost nothing is resistant or immune to force.

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MM:
Fire Reisstance: 37 Immunity: 40 Vulnerability: 9

Most of those are fiends which aren't resistant to Necrotic (and probably don't want to be using many cantrips against anyway). It's easy to replace Create Bonfire with something else if the Warlock is worried about fire resistance/immunity. Heck they could even take Eldritch Blast as a back up if they really want to which is different than being 'reliant' on it. (Fire also has the biggest vulnerability list of all types, though Radiant probably has the best added riders against certain creatures)

Necrotic Resistance: 11 Immunity: 11 Vulnerability: 0

I don't consider 22 out of 337 to be 'many'. The d12 versus d10 makes up for it in the majority of encounters.

Ultimately the biggest factor here is AC (plus cover) vs Wisdom (and Dex if we are using Create Bonfire). Also, Eldritch Blast is terrible when enemies reach the Warlock while the other cantrips are just fine (and Create Bonfire will even protect the Warlock).

Agonizing blast. d10+X beats every other damage die as long as your charisma modifier is a positive number.

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It costs an invocation.

"Other Invocations" like Forceful Blast only work with EB.

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Those also cost invocations. There are other invocations.

Combats aren't won with cantrips. Spellcaster's contribution to the party is not their cantrips. If you waste all of your invocations on cantrip buffing then of course you're going to feel this way.

I think the primary disconnect here is undervaluing the non-EB invocations and overvaluing the role of cantrips in battle.

Also, the easiest way to have a Warlock not rely on Eldritch Blast if those cantrips above aren't enough for you is to take the Tome Pact and take cantrips with good riders likely to help out the party more than just a point of damage or two.

mellored said:

Blade requires a 2-3 combat invocations to keep up with eldrich blast, and 1-2 feats to beat it in damage. So that's not adding to explortation or social interation, it's trading it away.

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I'm not sure if I was clear. I mean Hexblade, not Blade Pact. The patron, not the pact.

Hexblade + Tome Pact is probably the most powerful Warlock (an argument could be made for Hexblade + Chain)

If you using hexblade with eldritch blast, then you basically have medium armor mastery. Good, but not strictly better than the load of THP you get from fiend, or the healing of celestial, or telepathy from GOO. All of which come with better spells. (arch fey only get's better spells). Particularly since you can dip for armor or take the feat.

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Oh wait, you did see the difference. Hexblade gets Hexblade's Curse which is very strong. The only thing that Hexblade has that requires a weapon is the Cha to hit/dmg and that is its weakest ability.

The curse or the armour alone is worth more than any other patron's ability (short of high level which most campaigns won't get to and if they do won't spend much time in).

The 6th level Hexblade ability is also very good.

THP from Fiend requires that the Warlock delivers the killing blow. Healing from Curse just works.

1 round frighten/charm that requires an action just isn't that great. Curse is a bonus action.

Telepathy is fine but it is about as good as Message, maybe a bit better.

Curse is amazing. Going from AC 14 to AC 19 is also amazing.