Really not an issue vs a fighter with polearm and gwm laughs at beserker barbarian never had any issues in my game
But as a balance point I seen some make the berserker spend an extra rage point to activate frenzy instead
D&D 5E Berserker is balanced with Zealot without exhaustion from Frenzy
- Thread starter Sword of Spirit
- Start date
Really not an issue vs a fighter with polearm and gwm laughs at beserker barbarian never had any issues in my game
But as a balance point I seen some make the berserker spend an extra rage point to activate frenzy instead
Whenever this comes up, people begin to argue the fact that feats are technically optional; despite the fact that probably a majority of games implement them.
@Sword of Spirit, how exactly did you get 14 DPR for level 3? i turned up 16 and i am uncertain if i am missing something.
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Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
I removed the Frenzy penalty long ago. It is the only ability I am aware of that actually penalizes the player. Everything else is about resource management. You don't see a Totem Barbarian being punished for being resistant to pretty much every damage type. This ability is so out of whack based on the way they have designed every other ability.
Actually, I take it back. Only ability I can think of that penalizes a player is using a freaking Wish spell. So Frenzy is as game breaking as Wish? Is that what WotC is saying?
EDIT: I did find one other spell that penalizes the user in the Haste spell. But that penalty lasts only one round. Given that combats generally only last a few rounds and only very rarely 10+ rounds, unless concentration is broken it's completely possible for a character to never even experience the drawback of Haste.
Actually, I take it back. Only ability I can think of that penalizes a player is using a freaking Wish spell. So Frenzy is as game breaking as Wish? Is that what WotC is saying?
EDIT: I did find one other spell that penalizes the user in the Haste spell. But that penalty lasts only one round. Given that combats generally only last a few rounds and only very rarely 10+ rounds, unless concentration is broken it's completely possible for a character to never even experience the drawback of Haste.
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I effectively did this in my last game...morely just because we would forget about it. Our Barbarian was certainly strong, but I think that was more about GWM than frenzy itself.
That said, I will note that the berserker mindless rage ability is very good. Normally charm spells are a natural bane of the barbarian, nothing worse than turning your raging super weapon against the party. Having that immunity is gold.
That said, I will note that the berserker mindless rage ability is very good. Normally charm spells are a natural bane of the barbarian, nothing worse than turning your raging super weapon against the party. Having that immunity is gold.
thought it would be good to compare all of the subclass abilities side by side, to see how they both stack up.
Frenzy vs Divine Fury (Winner: Zealot): As noted, divine fury is about a match with frenzy. But if frenzy still costs exhaustion it loses ground.
Warrior of the Gods: Mostly a nice flavor add for the zealot, but I don't consider it worth talking about in true balance discussion.
Fanatical Focus vs Mindless Rage (Winner: Berserker): Fanatical focus is good, I really like it. But the true immunity of mindless rage is awesome, and its immunity to 2 key conditions that stop barbarians from being barbs, or worse can turn them against their own party. I feel its the signature ability of the berserker right now.
Zealous Presence vs Intimidating Presence (Winner: Zealot): This one is not even close. Intimidating Presence is not a great ability, you are sacrificing a lot of barbarian damage to use it, and its effect is too limited to be worth it in most cases. Meanwhile the bonus action of the zealous prescence makes it highly usable, and its also very powerful.
Retaliation vs Rage beyond Death (Winner: Berserker): Rage beyond death is cool as heck don't get me wrong. But I find the normal barb relentless rage already takes care of most of that. Its just really damn hard to put a barbarian down, by the time you get through all of the hitpoints, and you have hit the barb enough times that the con save of relentless rage becomes failable....the fight is normally over. Meanwhile, retaliation gets use over and over and over again.
so the subclasses aren't too imbalanced with each other overall. However, if you account for the fact that most characters never get to the higher levels, and I think Zealot comes ahead a bit. Honestly the frenzy issue to me is not the main problem. Its actually the intimidating presence, its a really weak ability overall.
Frenzy vs Divine Fury (Winner: Zealot): As noted, divine fury is about a match with frenzy. But if frenzy still costs exhaustion it loses ground.
Warrior of the Gods: Mostly a nice flavor add for the zealot, but I don't consider it worth talking about in true balance discussion.
Fanatical Focus vs Mindless Rage (Winner: Berserker): Fanatical focus is good, I really like it. But the true immunity of mindless rage is awesome, and its immunity to 2 key conditions that stop barbarians from being barbs, or worse can turn them against their own party. I feel its the signature ability of the berserker right now.
Zealous Presence vs Intimidating Presence (Winner: Zealot): This one is not even close. Intimidating Presence is not a great ability, you are sacrificing a lot of barbarian damage to use it, and its effect is too limited to be worth it in most cases. Meanwhile the bonus action of the zealous prescence makes it highly usable, and its also very powerful.
Retaliation vs Rage beyond Death (Winner: Berserker): Rage beyond death is cool as heck don't get me wrong. But I find the normal barb relentless rage already takes care of most of that. Its just really damn hard to put a barbarian down, by the time you get through all of the hitpoints, and you have hit the barb enough times that the con save of relentless rage becomes failable....the fight is normally over. Meanwhile, retaliation gets use over and over and over again.
so the subclasses aren't too imbalanced with each other overall. However, if you account for the fact that most characters never get to the higher levels, and I think Zealot comes ahead a bit. Honestly the frenzy issue to me is not the main problem. Its actually the intimidating presence, its a really weak ability overall.
MechaTarrasque
Hero
I figure swapping frenzy with retaliation solves a lot of the berserker's problems. You are still a tough guy/gal who gets to swing his/her ax an extra time each round (that someone hits you). At higher levels, you are a tough guy/gal who gets to reliably swing his/her ax an extra time each round.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Intimidating presence is only useless if you don't use it. Otherwise it's "pin a melee foe in a corner while my buddies kill it at zero cost". If it was a spell, people would scream about it being ridiculously OP.
Bardbarian
First Post
It might be a better ability if it used a stat that was higher in the priority of a barbarian. As the only feature of the barbarian that keys off Charisma in a class that has very compelling need of Str, Dex and Con and a real benefit from wisdom for the purpose of saves and skills, this one ability is not reliable enough to warrant the loss of 3 attacks for a low chance of success of hindering an enemy for a single round.
Sword of Spirit
Legend
You’re right, it’s actually 16.
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