D&D 5E Ancestral Guardian Barbarian who just got a Dwarven Thrower, help?

Arthil · Dec 18, 2017

Level 3 Dwarf Barbarian, Ancestral Guardian. 17 STR|13 DEX|16 CON|10 INT|12 WIS|8 CHA Currently 14 AC/39 HP

So I was really excited when I got this weapon as was everyone else at the table, me and the DM even started going over feats I could maybe take to benefit the new addition especially with another party member giving me their +2 shield after getting a +3 one from a loot roll.

Until I got home and began to dig into things. Just to note I believe this is an Adventure League setting we just call it something else. Crawford is terribly contradictory and conflicting with his rulings regarding thrown weapons, but without digging up every iteration of the question I'd probably just have to try and go off of RAW which... while contradictory suggests I can't use the main benefit of this thing with my core class abilities: Rage and Reckless Attack.

This bummed me out, a lot and also made me realize I've been using my javelin and handaxes wrong too. But I might still be able to make some use out of it, given my Level 3 Ancestral Guardian ability does not state it must be done in melee range.

My AC will be very high at 18 with the shield, my to hit will be far better with the Dwarven Thrower and damage only a single point lower than the battle-axe I've been using. I'd like to get to use this thing, but am just unsure of what direction to go with the character now.

Edit:

Having a chance to think over things, I'm pretty sure that dipping into Fighter is gonna be a requirement to squeeze more damage out of this thing at higher levels. 2d8 Thrown base damage so with my current modifiers that's 2d8+3+3. If I dip one into Fighter and get Duelist that's 2d8+3+3+2 and if I were to get Battle Master with two more levels into Fighter using a maneuver which also damages the enemy would be 2d8+1d8+3+3+2.

With my STR where it is, I'd be able to get to 20 STR very quickly so it might be good to hold off on any dipping until at least 8. I'd be putting getting Brutal Critical, my 10th lvl Path feature and Relentless Rage for three levels doing this though. The end result would be 2d8+1d8+5+3+2 at Level 11 and I'd be able to do that twice on a turn if I wanted to expend 2 superiority dice at a time.

Greenstone.Walker · Dec 19, 2017

Arthil said:
…I'd probably just have to try and go off of RAW which... while contradictory suggests I can't use the main benefit of this thing with my core class abilities: Rage and Reckless Attack.

I don't think it is contradictory; just confusing and badly explained.

A melee weapon is something found on the melee weapons table in the rulebooks. You hold it and hit a target with it, which is a melee weapon attack. This uses STR.

If a melee weapon has the thrown tag then you can throw it at a target, which is a ranged weapon attack. This also uses STR. The weapon is, however, still a melee weapon.

A ranged weapon is something found on the ranged weapon table in the rulebooks. You either throw it at a foe (if it has the thrown tag) or use it to launch some sort of missile at the foe (if it has the ammunition tag), both of which is a ranged weapon attack. This uses DEX.

If a weapon has the finesse tag then you can choose to use DEX or STR .

There are also a few of things that aren't weapons but are still used to make a melee weapon attack, using STR, or a ranged weapon attack, using DEX: unarmed attacks, claw/bite/etc attacks and improvised weapons.

The game is pretty consistent about the difference between "attack with a melee weapon" and "melee weapon attack". For example, as you've already picked up, Barbarian Rage damage bonus requires a "melee weapon attack using Strength" and therefore doesn't apply to thrown weapons.

Summary:
• "Melee weapon" and "ranged weapon" is based on which table the weapon appear in.
• "Melee weapon attack" and "ranged weapon attack" are based on what you are doing.
• You can make a ranged weapon attack with a melee weapon but only if it has the thrown tag.
• Use of STR or DEX is determined by the type of weapon and the finesse tag; not by what you are doing.

Arthil · Dec 19, 2017

Greenstone.Walker said:
I don't think it is contradictory; just confusing and badly explained.

A melee weapon is something found on the melee weapons table in the rulebooks. You hold it and hit a target with it, which is a melee weapon attack. This uses STR.

If a melee weapon has the thrown tag then you can throw it at a target, which is a ranged weapon attack. This also uses STR. The weapon is, however, still a melee weapon.

A ranged weapon is something found on the ranged weapon table in the rulebooks. You either throw it at a foe or launch some sort of ammunition, which is a ranged weapon attack. This uses DEX.

If a weapon (melee or ranged) has the finesse tag then you can choose to use DEX or STR .

There are also a few of things that aren't weapons but are still used to make a weapon attack: unarmed attacks, claw/bite/etc attacks and improvised weapons. These are usually melee weapon attacks using STR.

The game is pretty consistent about the difference between "attack with a melee weapon" and "melee weapon attack". For example, as you've already picked up, Barbarian Rage damage bonus requires a "melee weapon attack using Strength" and therefore doesn't apply to thrown weapons.

Seems like such a strange thing to do, because I can still benefit from 2/3rds of the Sharpshooter Feat or 1/3rd of the Crossbow Expert Feat for example. In the end it's still a +3 magical weapon and I'm Level 3. I'll probably be really hard pressed to find something better. I'm not even a sub-class of Barbarian that's focused on dishing out only damage anyway, being able to give disadvantage to enemies at range (30ft out, 60ft with disadvantage on the attack or without if I take Sharpshooter) while raging is really good. Battle Master seems the most logical dip, Champion wouldn't be worth it cause I'm not capable of building for crit fishing as Ancestral Guardian(I think?).

Cavalier is neat, but it's basically something I can do already but I need to be in melee range for it to work. I would however not need to rage to do so, I'd get a bonus action attack on something if it somehow hits someone else afterward, and can do that up to 5 times per long rest once I get 20 STR. However, superiority dice come back at a short rest and I'd have four of them.

Samurai... Could be interesting for giving myself advantage, though it's limited to three uses per long rest.

I'm not sure if there are other class combos which might work? A Cleric of some kind maybe?

Caliban · Dec 19, 2017

I doubt this is Adventure League if you are getting +2 and +3 shields and Dwarven Throwers at level 3.

You are probably in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, which is the campaign world that Adventure League uses for their adventures.

The Melee Weapon vs. Melee Weapon Attack thing can be confusing, but as far as I can tell Jeremy Crawford has been consistent on it.

A Hammer is a melee weapon. Even if you throw it, it is still a melee weapon - you are just using a "melee weapon" to make a "Ranged Weapon Attack".

Unfortunately, the barbarian Rage damage applies to melee weapon attacks, not ranged weapon attacks (even though you are using a melee weapon to do it).

Bonuses that apply to "Melee Weapons" in general would still work (such as the Dueling fighting style), as well as bonuses to Ranged Weapon Attacks (but not the Archery fighting style, because the +2 bonus applies to ranged weapons, not ranged weapon attacks).

Great Weapon Style would apply if you used two hands to throw it (but you would not be able to use Dueling style on that attack, because that requires you to use the weapon in one hand).

Battlemaster is probably the way to go if you want to increase your damage with the Dwarven Thrower, as the Combat Superiority dice apply to either melee or ranged attacks.

Arthil · Dec 19, 2017

I'm glad it seems I was on the right track

I hadn't considered GWF, as I had assumed it had the same drawback as Great Weapon Master which doesn't apply to weapons that are not Heavy.

The reason I mentioned Adventure League is because our city has a big Multiverse thing, that allows people to hop between games and kind of has a lore reason for why this happens.

I wonder if in the future I might be able to use downtime to have the weapon... modified? Someone on my Discord server suggested a 30ft that would make my throws within that distance a melee weapon attack. Another possibility is maybe getting it converted into a Heavy weapon for Great Weapon Master? But then again that +2 Shield is hard to pass up.

As for the loot itself, I was the lowest level person in the party and we fought some custom monsters our DM for that night created which are Very Deadly but also Very Rewarding. Treasure Jellies/Slimes/Puddings which are filled with gold/platinum and magical items.

Caliban · Dec 19, 2017

Arthil said:
I'm glad it seems I was on the right track

I hadn't considered GWF, as I had assumed it had the same drawback as Great Weapon Master which doesn't apply to weapons that are not Heavy.

Great Weapon Fighting applies to any melee weapon wielded in two hands - so two handed or versatile weapons (like warhammers) when both hands are used.

Great Weapon Master grants two abilities, but only one of them requires the Heavy property to function (the -5 att/+10 dam). The bonus action attack when you crit or drop an enemy to 0 HP functions with any melee weapon, from clubs and daggers to rapiers and mauls. This can trigger even if you throw them. But the bonus action attack itself has to be a melee weapon attack.

Arthil · Jan 8, 2018

So I've not needed any help so far. Level 5 and more or less it dies if I throw this hammer at it. Then again maybe I've not been given a challenge appropriate to my level for a while.