Are Prestige Classes Really Necessary?

Are Prestige Classes Really Necessary?

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Not necessary as they are optional. As a gamer, really it's your choice. You can use PrC's You cannot use them, you can even build your own. And while tough to do, you've got a site here for sure with folks who will help you build them.

I know, because some ENWorld members gave my DM some great advice for my character's PrC about 5 months ago.

Monte Cook, did a PrC workshop. He talks about building one and how they are campaign specific. You may wish to check it out.

Prestige Class Online Design Workshop

Prestige Class Online Design Workshop, Part II

So, IMO- "optional" is a better word in regards to deciding whether or not use them as compared "Necessary", "Have to" or "Must"

Good Gaming!

-Danyon

Wolfshead said:

The idea of fewer, broader core classes is appealing. I thought Alternity did a good job of handling classes within a skill-based system. There were only four- Combat Spec (Fighter?), Free Agent (Rogue?), Diplomat (Cleric?), and Tech Op (Wizard?).

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My sentiments exactly.

I'd have to say that salt and pepper aren't really necessary in my dinner, either. But I sure do prefer the flavor.

I don't think that you can normally do everything with regular classes you can do with prestige classes. Often, prestige classes are the logical continuation or apex of a particular character concept. And if you can portray that concept with the use of standard classes and feats, then it's safe to say that the prestige class was unnecessary.

Prestige classes offer options that aren't available otherwise.

Going back briefly to the distinction between rogue and expert, I suppose that you could get rid of rogue if you made some rogue abilities available as feats. Like Sneak Attack and Uncanny Dodge. A roguish character could multiclass between Expert and Fighter, getting both combat skills (like sneak attack) and talent skills.

So really, we could narrow it all down to:

Fighter: Good--Base attack bonus, bonus combat feats. Poor--Skill points, no magic powers.

Expert: Good--Skill Points, bonus skill feats. Poor--Base attack bonus, no magic powers.

Magus: Good--Magic powers, bonus magic feats. Poor--Base attack bonus, skill points.

You run into a little problem with saves (Fighter has good Fort, Magus has good Will, but Expert should have good Will too). Maybe you could go the Call of Cthulhu route and let PCs choose which save they want to be good.

Ah, anyway, I still love prestige classes. Why don't we each post an example or two of bad and good prestige classes (if possible, comment on non-WotC products too).

Good--Stiltling, in Asgard issue 1 or 2. Like the lasher, this class had unique abilities based on an exotic fighting style--halflings fighting with polearms.

Good--Thief-Acrobat. As much as Song & Silence left me feeling disappointed, this class was nifty and cinematic.

Bad--Loremaster. I can forgive it, since it was one of the earliest prestige classes, but this one has very little drawback, making nearly any wizard or sorcerer want it.

Bad--Demonologist, Binder, and Possessed, from Mongoose's Demonology. Basically, they let anyone try to summon demons if they find the right knowledge, but then present a prestige class to focus on this ability. I just thought this class was unnecessary. The feats in the book could have done just as well. If they're going to let anybody be a demon-summoner, why require them to change classes?

Oriental Adventures Martial Arts Styles

IMHO, the implementation of martial arts styles makes more sense than the current proliferation of prestige classes. This idea of styles is easily extended to more than martial arts situations. Basically, a style is a grouping of related skills and feats. If a character takes all of them, then they get a benefit.

Part of the problem is the assumption that Prestige Classes are only for PCs, and the tunnel-vision that results from this. Further, prestige classes have often been used incorrectly, IMHO, as a way to get uber-powers, and not to serve a concept. Sometimes the designers fall in love with a concept so much, they forget good design rules, and this is what results in so many broken PrCs.

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Actually, as I wrote before, the problem with prestige classes is that they really only work for NPCs. Most of them just don't fit into an adventuring party where you have to face a variety of challenges.

Show me how to make a Geomancer, or a Shifter, or a Void Deciple, or a Spellsword, or a Bladesinger, or a Dragon Mage, or an Elemental Savant, or a Drunken Master, or a Ninja Spy, or a...

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I seems to me that you just look at a prestige class as a way to get more abilities. Show me how any of these are not either totally munchkin or just lame. They make good NPC characters.

A prestige class should encourage a character to focus, but not become so narrow that they can't handle a wide variety of situations. The prestige class should also mesh with the style of the base classes. Finally, it should be a tough player decision to take up a prestige class -- there should be role playing decisions associated with entering into one (like some have mentioned tying them to organizations). Otherwise, they are just pointless.

I have yet to see a player even ask to take a prestige class much less play one. The ones presented so far are generally considered either lame or so powerful at one narrow aspect of the game that the character is sidelined when a different situation comes up the other nine out of ten times.

IMHO, the game would have been much better without them.

First, I dislike the OA martial arts styles. Nice idea, poorly implimented.

I seems to me that you just look at a prestige class as a way to get more abilities. Show me how any of these are not either totally munchkin or just lame. They make good NPC characters.

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I can't prove an opinion. And that's all you have there is your opinion. For the record, however, there is not a one of those I would consider munchkin, and only one I would consider "lame" at all (I've never really liked the Dragon Mage)

And I'll thank you to not claim to know how I think, because you don't seem to.

In a sense you are right; a prestige class is a way to get new opinon. Honestly. I mean, who would take a prestige class that basicly just gave you ten levels of fighter? No one. There would be no reason to, even for roleplay reasons (You could then just say you were XXXXX).

But I don't see how getting new abilities is a bad thing. I really don't.

I really, really, really don't understand your claim that prestige classes only work for NPCs. Not at all. Not in the slightest. A handful are aimed at NPCs, yes, but not all. Not even most. Not even very many. In fact, I can only think of maybe five off hand (Of WotC published ones, that is). The rest work equaly well either way.

You also seem to have a somewhat unusual group of people around you... Prestige classes are fairly common talk among my groups. Not that everyone takes one or anything, but a lot of people talk about it, and some do.

And remember, focus (Narrow focus even) is what prestige classes were originaly intended to be for. That kinda got lost, but...

Furthermore, how would be be better off without prestige classes? That's the real question to consider. They are totaly optional. It's like saying we would have been better off without the Bugbears or Gnolls. It doesn't matter one way or another since it plays no core role.

Hi, everyone! Holy cats, there's alot of replies to this thread. I won't be able to reply in more depth until tonight, but my primary thought was that a prestige class could be transformed into a viable character class, and still be a viable alternative. It can be tricky. You don't want to frontload the class, or else everyone will take a level in it, like people do with the ranger (my players do that, and I can't really condemn them for that). Nor should it be too strong or too weak. It needs to have just a wide enough focus to provide an acceptable, enjoyable contribution to the adventuring party.

How can we make that happen?

Well....

It depends on the class.

Let's say you have a "Holy Liberator". This prestige class from "Defenders of the Faith" is interesting. It has a nice feel to it It's like the chaotic good version of the paldin, without being a CLONE of the paladin.

Could the Holy Liberator's powers be spread out over 20 levels?

Maybe.

Could a Holy Liberator gain her powers at 1st level?

Only if his power progression were suitably (and subtly) altered to be in more balance with the paladin. Front-loading would have to be avoided at all costs.

I'd respond to each you guys, individually, RangerWickett, WaterRabbit, Tsyr, Olidammara, Joshua Dyal, and everybody else. I don't mean to leave anybody out but I've lingered too long. I gotta get outta here. I'll probably be on here in another five or six hours.

My last point is that I'm not so concerned with metagaming. I'm more concerned with "character concepts" for roleplaying purposes, and sometimes the existing character classes just don't cover all of the bases. We'll delve into that soon. Anyway, thanks for all the stimulating replies! Later!

Shor and sweet

Are prestige classes neccessary?

No.

Are they fun?

Yes.

Nuff said.

Amen to that.

I enjoy the flavor PrC bring to my campaign world, but they are used sparingly and judiciously. In fact, I employ PrC for my characters and NPCs with the same discretion used in multiclassing -- they aren't a necessary consideration in many cases. When they are, then I have them at the tip of my fingers.

IMO, they are a massive improvement over the 2e kits, and should be a non-issue for folks who don't like them whatsoever. After all, how hard is it to just stick with the core classes if that's your preference?

Addressing the focal point of the original question, I would agree with those who claim allowing PrC as a 1st level option is bad. It didn't work well for 2e (although what did?) because there was just too much time wasted on deciding which of the 1,001 character concepts fit your new PC before he/she had even begun adventuring. The advent of PrC allows several levels of XP to accumulate before being faced with such options, and thereby supplies players the time to see how the campaign is shaping their characters.