What Do You Mean By "Fun" In Your RPG?

When someone says a game is "fun," you probably don’t really know what they mean, and maybe they don’t, either. Until you recognize that what's fun for you isn't necessarily fun for every game player, you cannot be a good GM.

When someone says a game is "fun," you probably don’t really know what they mean, and maybe they don’t, either. Until you recognize that what's fun for you isn't necessarily fun for every game player, you cannot be a good GM.


It’s obvious that what’s fun to a serious Chess player is not the same as what’s fun to a serious D&Der. What’s fun for an Apples to Apples player is very different from fun for a Diplomacy or Britannia player.

Some people have identified different kinds of fun or enjoyment in games, and the most well-known of these is “8 Kinds of Fun” by Marc LeBlanc.


  • Sensation/Game as sense-pleasure
  • Fantasy/Game as make-believe
  • Narrative/Game as unfolding story
  • Challenge/Game as obstacle course
  • Fellowship/Game as social framework
  • Discovery/Game as uncharted territory
  • Expression/Game as soap box
  • Submission/Game as mindless pastime

You can see that some of these are in some RPGs and not in others, but most RPG rules permit most of these kinds of fun if the GM tries to provide it. When you're planning a campaign (or designing an RPG ruleset, or writing an RPG setting) ask yourself which kinds of fun your target audience likes, and try to incorporate them into your work. For example, Discovery is obvious as many RPGs have a considerable exploration segment. RPGs usually offer Fellowship well, by their co-operative nature. Campaigns that are games (where you can fail) and not playgrounds (where there is no failure) are often Challenging Obstacle Courses. Some campaigns are big Puzzles, with lots of puzzles in each adventure.

I might prefer to call narrative Story because to me narrative (an account of what happens) is always in a game, but not always a good story. Some campaigns emphasize stories and some don't. Sometimes a GM imposes a story on the game, other GMs let the players write their own story, that is, create a narrative that’s interesting and original to them.

Many campaigns encourage self-Expression, most are about Fantasy (in the sense of something outside the real world).

Submission (time-killing) is not unusual in RPGs, though less in tabletop than video. The least common of the “8 Kinds” is Sensation, because so much of an RPG takes place in the minds of the players. On the other hand, in LARPs sensation is a major aspect.

Another point of view is Nicole Lazzaro's Four Keys to Fun that create powerful emotions:


  • Hard Fun: Fiero – in the moment personal triumph over adversity (Goals, obstacles, strategies)
  • Easy Fun: Curiosity (Exploration, Fantasy, Creativity)
  • Serious Fun: Relaxation and excitement (Repetition, rhythm, collection)
  • People Fun: Amusement (Communicate, Cooperate, Compete)

While not the same as LeBlanc’s, you can see lots of crossover. I’m not sure why she chose “serious” for category 3, but I can’t immediately think of an alternative.

I’m sure we can come up with other kinds of fun that may appeal to smaller groups. For example, I like to see how a game is structured, how designers accomplish their goals. I like co-operation, but against human opposition (as in RPGs), not so much against simple programmed opposition via cards (as in tabletop co-op board and card games).

Larger groups, too: we can suppose that many video game players have fun seeing depictions of violent death (often in slow motion, with gore), which are very common in AAA video games, and which we only imagine in tabletop games. Another example, some video gamers are so wedded to graphics that they cannot enjoy a game without photo-realistic visuals.

Perhaps you can suggest more?

contributed by Lewis Pulsipher
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

RobertBrus

Explorer
My suggestion (IMHO):

I've seen a number of articles on the GM's responsibility to make sure the players are happy. It is an important point. But here is my "deeper" take on this theme.

What about the GM? Is the GM "earth mother" who is quite happy to allow the players to suckle any way that makes them happy, and the GM smiles and "isn't it all wonderful." Or, isn't the GM also a player who has equal right to have "fun?"

I hate meta-gaming during combat. When it's another player's turn, shut up and let them have the spotlight. Why in the hell is your rogue trying to tell a wizard which spell to cast? Oh, because you the player know everything about wizard spells. You are playing a rogue; shut the hell up.

My point is simple: the GM is there to help everyone have a good time. The players should show the same respect for the GM. It cannot be players only. If not, the GM needs to find another group of players. Or at least, respectfully remove the players who refuse to give back to the GM. Then, everyone can have fun, each in their own/collective way.
 

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Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
Some players just want to show up, roll some dice, and kill some monsters. They don’t pipe up when people are talking about what to do next, they don’t really role-play. I feel like that’s selling themselves short on the experience, but so be it. That’s about as close to a passive experience as I’ve seen in gaming.
I've played with some folks like that. A few can be functional in a group because they are often reliable players who don't occupy too much table time. A group of five hardcore role-players will often have so much going on they can't get anything done. Gods help the poor DM who ends up with a table of only those people, though.

And, way at the end of the classic list from Robin Laws, is the casual gamer:

The Casual Gamer is often forgotten in discussions of this sort, but almost every group has one. Casual gamers tend to be low key folks who are uncomfortable taking center stage even in a small group. Often, they're present to hang out with the group, and game just because it happens to be the activity everyone else has chosen. Though they're elusive creatures, casual gamers can be vitally important to a gaming group's survival. They fill out the ranks, which is especially important in games that spread vital PC abilities across a wide number of character types or classes. Especially if they're present mostly for social reasons, they may fill an important role in the group's interpersonal dynamic. Often they're the mellow, moderating types who keep the more assertive personalities from each other's throats -- in or out of character. I mention the casual player because the thing he most fervently wants is to remain in the background. He doesn't wnat to have to learn rules or come up with a plot hook for his character or engage in detailed planning. You may think it's a bad thing that he sits there for much of the session thumbing through your latest purchases from the comic book store, but hey, that's what he wants. The last thing you want to do is to force him into a greater degree of participation than he's comfortable with. (Of course, if everybody in the group is sitting there reading your comic books, you've definitely got a problem...)
 
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Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
I'm not sure that diving into the semantic rabbit hole of fun vs enjoyment is really all that valuable. If we take the notion of "fun" at face value -as in something you like doing and want to do again - it makes things work a lot easier.

Absolutely. Nitpicky semantic arguments are frequently a waste of time, though of course the internet is one of the best suited environments for them. :p

But, I think the larger point is well made. We all emphasise different aspects of "fun" and how we rank those aspects will differ from those around us and are a pretty big point of contention within a particular group. I wonder if there would be value in a sort of questionnaire for new groups to see where they rank the different points and identify possible areas of contention.
Yes, this to me is pretty key. You may have unexpressed preferences at a table. The problem I have with questionnaire approaches is I tend to find that the semantics really start to bite. More than once I've met two players who both insist "oh I'm into roleplaying" but have markedly different notions of what that is. Some initial notions are a good idea, of course, but in general I think there's no substitute for getting experience with the group.
 
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pemerton

Legend
I wonder if there would be value in a sort of questionnaire for new groups to see where they rank the different points and identify possible areas of contention.
The problem I have with questionnaire approaches is I tend to find that the semantics really start to bite. More than once I've met two players who both insist "oh I'm into roleplaying" but have markedly different notions of what that is. Some initial notions are a good idea, of course, but in general I think there's no substitute for getting experience with the group.
The other problem with questionnaires is that most people aren't very good at reporting their preferences in abstract terms. If you want to learn what people enjoy, you have to watch them rather than just ask them.
 

Von Ether

Legend
More than once I've met two players who both insist "oh I'm into roleplaying" but have markedly different notions of what that is. Some initial notions are a good idea, of course, but in general I think there's no substitute for getting experience with the group.

You have no idea.

I once had a fellow complain that I didn't have enough roleplay in my group which almost knocked me backwards from my eyes rolling into the back of my head. "What do you mean?" I said. "Every time I try roleplaying with your PC, you shut it down. You're character is an orphan with no siblings and pays for prostitutes to avoid romantic entanglements. If people don't have money, you almost would rather shiv them than talk to them."

He gave a weird look. "Yeah, I don't known what that stuff is, but it's not roleplay."

Perplexed, I asked, "What is roleplay then?"

Perking up, he smiled. "Oh! That's when you do stuff like the floor is a giant chessboard and we have to move like chess pieces to avoid getting killed or something."

"That's puzzle-solving and traps. I could do more of those, but that's not roleplay."

He snorted. "Yes, it is."

The next year, Diablo came out and he never did tabletop again. I only "missed" him because I was stuck in small-town-hell and that meant we were a body down. That was only the tip of the iceberg, but the real lesson I learned was that sometimes it's better to stop the sort "fun" that frustrates you as compared to keep trying and hoping a bad situation will eventually turn around.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
You have no idea. <snip> The next year, Diablo came out and he never did tabletop again. I only "missed" him because I was stuck in small-town-hell and that meant we were a body down. That was only the tip of the iceberg, but the real lesson I learned was that sometimes it's better to stop the sort "fun" that frustrates you as compared to keep trying and hoping a bad situation will eventually turn around.

Oh I've encountered some real doozies over the years, too. The real lesson is absolutely true, not just for RPGs but more broadly. Living in an environment where you have to make due with people often means that you put up with some folks you'd really rather not, though.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
The other problem with questionnaires is that most people aren't very good at reporting their preferences in abstract terms. If you want to learn what people enjoy, you have to watch them rather than just ask them.
Certainly, that's what I meant by "there's no substitute for getting experience with the group." Another problem I didn't think of with questionnaires is they're overused. Every business you deal with wants customer service feedback, except they don't want genuine feedback. There's always the implied pressure of "give me a 5 star rating or else deal with the likely fact that my manager will give me hell and then call you to `make it right,'" i.e., more hassle and wasted time.

I have had past GMs do something useful on this ground, though. One asked for specific things about the proposed character so he could figure out how to work them into the overall narrative. These included past relationships, ideals, things the character was guilty about, etc. (He was inconsistent at working PCs in, but at least he asked.) Another asked for a mix of things that the players were looking for from the particular game in terms of themes and activities such as diplomacy, exploration, combat, technology, and so on. This helped guide chargen and adventure design.
 

pemerton

Legend
I have had past GMs do something useful on this ground, though. One asked for specific things about the proposed character so he could figure out how to work them into the overall narrative. These included past relationships, ideals, things the character was guilty about, etc. (He was inconsistent at working PCs in, but at least he asked.) Another asked for a mix of things that the players were looking for from the particular game in terms of themes and activities such as diplomacy, exploration, combat, technology, and so on. This helped guide chargen and adventure design.
When I started my first 4e campaign, I required each player to indicate one loyalty for his/her PC, and one reason the PC would be ready to fight goblins. These provided the starting point for play.

Other systems that I run (eg Burning Wheel, Marvel Herioc RP) build these sorts of things more directly into PC creation: Burning Wheel requires each PC to have three Beliefs, which the GM then uses as the basis for running the game; and Marvel Heroic PCs have "milestones" - ie designated episodes of characerisation and character development which earn XP when they occur, and thus are the basis for PC improvement in that game.

I would see these sorts of systems as a bit different from what is at issue in the OP, though, and a bit different from [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s questionnaire, because they already presuppose that part of the players' "fun" in that game is expressing/evoking their characters, and seeing that character-driven play at the core of the game. You only have to read around ENworld a little bit to see that, for many RPGers, that's not central to what they enjoy about their RPG experience!
 

Yaztromo

Explorer
I think that, while you try to provide fun that you "planned" ahead of the game, sometimes players tell you they had special fun with a game and you recognize it retrospectively, although you didn't plan a lot for that.
 

Kegsen

First Post
As a brand new DM for two completely different groups in the LmoP, we`re still trying to get to grips with all the mechanics and keeping track of spells etc. But most importantly for everyone involved, is that we`re enjoying the time we`re spending both playing and even talking about the game outside the sessions. I spent last night making tokens to glue on a thick pieces of cardboard, and had a blast, knowing that the players appreciated the extra work I put in. Just as I appreciate it when they take the time to learn how the game works, and figuring out solutions to problems in character or simply inhabiting the world we create together when they interact with NPCs or whatnot. I have fun mapping out minidungeons on napkins, but hey - I guess that`s every new DMs joy :) It could be that we`re all new to the game, and we`re a bit "wheeee" with everything, but when one of the players ask me if they can borrow the PHB because she wants to make a few new characters just for the fun of it, I feel we`re going in the right direction.
 

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