D&D 5E Dire Animal Template

One thing I really miss from worlds like Lord of the Rings and such is the ability of regular forest animals to actually be dangerous to heroes (and not just commoners and level 1 characters).

But in D&D, spiders, wolves and the like always (as in every edition) are lowest-tier fodder.

That's why I like the idea of "dire animals". In short, a way to turn an especially mean forest cat, an especially large spider, or an especially mythic elk into something that gives pause to even a mid-level party.

So I looked back to how 3rd edition actually implemented them.

That I should not have done. It's a hot fracking mess, that only reminds me why I stopped DMing d20 games...

Either they're implemented with pages upon PAGES with super-detailed stat blocks that do their utmost to upgrade each animal in an idiosyncratic super-detailed way...

...Or they go the template route, but immediately fail by making that a super-detailed process.

I really did forget how excruciatingly fiddly d20 was, and I'm having none of it.

For a "can't look away from the train wreck" kind of experience, just have a look at this PDF. Twelve (12!!) pages of fiddly details followed by the real horror of a template. Cripey, I say!



Of course "dire" should be a template - who wants dire animals to take up pages after pages - but it should be quick and easy. Much like other 5E templates (and 5E in general).

Quick and easy means: modify hp and attacks, and possibly something else like speed. Done.

No mucking about with ability scores (that means recalculating other things). Just say things like "all saves and checks increase by X" (justifying this by how the proficiency bonus is tied to CR anyway for non-PCs).

So what do we want out of a "dire" template? Basically to bring up a stat block one tier. For most (all? that's my point) animals that means from tier I into tier II. That is, a dire animal should be a viable opponent for a level 5-9 party. So it should be CR... what, 2? Minimum.

Basically, what we want is a template that takes a critter a number of steps up the "ladder of CRs", which is 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2... Say five such steps.

Most animals are CR 1/8 and CR 1/2 and such, and I'm okay with that ending up with CR 3 and CR 5 (five steps up the "ladder" each)

(I didn't say "solo opponent" because any solo opponent to a tier II party needs to be in the double-digit CRs. But that would have to be "legendary animals", and I'm not sure the need is such that a template is warranted. Besides, once you involve legendary lair actions etc you're probably better off statting up an individual creature)

I don't have the DMG with me, so I can't guess at where this would put a creature in terms of CR change.
For a really quick and dirty template I would go with something like: Double HP, increase size by one step, double the dice of natural attacks, increase natural armour by 4, and grant advantage to Str and Constitution ability checks and saves.

For dire versions of "critter" level creatures that don't start powerful enough for the template to be effective, I would probably crib stats from other creatures: Bear stats for a Dire Badger, or Hyena stats for a Dire weasel perhaps.

A more complex dire template should probably change ability scores and other more in-depth adjustments, and would allow much more fine-tuning of final CR.

One thing I'd make sure is to boost the Intelligence score of a dire beast so that it could be something more than a mindless beast attacking till its dead. Maybe boosting his Int to 8 so its intelligent enough to lay trap/ambush, hit-n-run etc like a real evil guy.

If you can get your hands on the DMG for adventures in middle-earth, there's many pages of plug-in features to add to normal creatures (war-drum, bee hive thrower, nauseating breath, coward, inspiring etc), they even have section of those for wolves (dread howl, pack hunter etc) and spiders (stunning poison, large web etc). It might be a good inspiration. To create boss, elite or dire enemy, I'd go something like:
Every time you raise the beast HD by 2, add one special features from the list of AiME. So you could take a regular giant spider, add 10 HD, give it 5 new features and you have a multi-legged BBEG that would scare the hell out of me if met in the shower

[MENTION=6802951]Cap'n Kobold[/MENTION]: Thanks.

However, "complex" is not what I want. But let me tell y'all what I do want

A good template is the Shadow Dragon Template (MM85). It starts simple enough, but can be summarized even simpler: "everything necrotic". Yes, it's a bit more than that, but nearly everything else is essentially ribbon abilities (considering how a competent party won't fight it in darkness).

To me, a good dire beast template can also be summed up in just a few short points (even if there are a bit more detail to it).

[MENTION=6802951]Cap'n Kobold[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6871653]vincegetorix[/MENTION]: thanks, but most suggestions make a minor difference. It is my opinion that relatively small things that doesn't significantly alter CR doesn't need to be codified. A DM can give a monster "inspiration" on a particular attack for instance, or give it maximum hp. All on the fly - no formal rules necessary.

What I'm looking for is a bigger change. While five steps on the "CR ladder" only means CR 1/8 becomes CR 3, it also means CR 2 becomes CR 7.

I don't know the details of Challenge Rating determination, and honestly, I'm not really using CRs myself. The main reason I'm using them here in these posts is to quickly get my meaning across. Not that I particularly care whether a monster with 40 hp is CR 2 or CR 3.

But basically, the template can't just double hit points, say. It also needs to provide a static boost.

Let's say "CR 2" means 40 hit points (perhaps not for creatures with good defenses, but animals have poor defenses). Then our template can say "double hit points plus 40", to ensure every critter becomes at least CR 3 (as regards hit points, at least). I might be inclined to make that "30 plus triple hp" to make the base creature's beefiness count for more, and to differentiate different dire beasts...

I hope you see what I'm driving at...

. . . So what were your thoughts about my suggestion at the top of my earlier post?

Cap'n Kobold said:

. . . So what were your thoughts about my suggestion at the top of my earlier post?

Click to expand...

You mean...:

Cap'n Kobold said:

For a really quick and dirty template I would go with something like: Double HP, increase size by one step, double the dice of natural attacks, increase natural armour by 4, and grant advantage to Str and Constitution ability checks and saves.

Click to expand...

For a regular Wolf, this would result in:

HP 22
Size Large
AC 17
Advantage on Str and Con ability checks and saves

Actions:
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 12 (4d4 + 2) piercing damage. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC 11 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone.


As a rough guess, that would make the Wolf go from CR 1/4 to a weak CR 1.

That was what I meant by "most suggestions make a minor difference". That's why I said "What I'm looking for is a bigger change."

What do you think about my rough outline "30 plus triple hp"?

For a Wolf, that would mean 66 hp. Still not much for a simple bruiser creature, if we're aiming for CR 4 (five steps higher than CR 1/4)...

Best regards

So here's a counter-proposal for a "really quick and dirty" dire beast template:

- triple its hp, then add 30 hp more
- increase size one step
- keep AC the same; split the suggested +4 bonus instead to give +2 to attacks and +2 to save DCs instead
- Int 6 if lower
- double the damage dice of its attacks
- add one more attack (most often resulting in a Multiattack like if not already present)

Where would this get us?

Dire Wolf
63 hp
AC 13
Int 6. This is still "malignant evil cunning" more than actual "intelligent planning", but then again, we're keeping Dire Animals as Beasts (rather than making them Monstrosities).

Multiattack. The Dire Wolf makes two bite attacks.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 12 (4d4 + 2) piercing damage. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC 13 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone.

Bumping this in the hopes there's some development on the 5E-appropriate (quick and easy) dire animal template front

CapnZapp said:

dire beast template:

- triple its hp, then add 30 hp more
- increase size one step
- keep AC the same; split the suggested +4 bonus instead to give +2 to attacks and +2 to save DCs instead
- Int 6 if lower
- double the damage dice of its attacks
- add one more attack (most often resulting in a Multiattack like if not already present)

Click to expand...

Here's a Dire Giant Constrictor as an example:

Hit Points 210 (24d12 HD)
Gargantuan beast
Armor Class 12
Int 6

Multiattack. The snake does one Bite and one Constrict attack.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +8 to hit, reach 10 ft., one creature. Hit: 18 (4d6 + 4) piercing damage. The snake has advantage on Bite attacks against targets it is constricting.
Constrict. Melee Weapon Attack: +8 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 22 (4d8 + 4) bludgeoning damage. The target is grappled (Escape DC 18) Until this grapple ends, the creature is restrained. The snake can constrict one huge or large target and up to 4 medium or small targets.

I like it a lot. Feedback:

- The "add 30 HP" feels incongruous. What would happen if you just tripled the hit points? I note your Dire Wolf has substantially more HP than the one in the MM, which has only 37 HP. OTOH the attack value of your Dire Wolf is pretty close to the one in the book. However the one in the MM does not have multiattack, which is pretty potent on this creature because of its knocking prone.

- How about increasing the saves in which it is proficient by 2, also? And skills in which it is proficient. This is similar to just increasing the proficiency bonus by 2 but is not exactly the same because some animals have Expertise and I don't think it's fair to ask DMs to figure that out on-the-fly; just +2 it all is fine. In your examples, Dire Wolf goes up to Perception +5 and Stealth +6, and Dire Giant Constrictor goes up to Perception +4. Since most monsters suck at Perception I think this is a good change.

- I'm not sure why we're increasing Int to 6. Dire Wolf doesn't get any Int increase, nor do the giant versions of most creatures. If I were you I'd make this like a separate template (awakened creature or something). Eagles and Owls get it because of Tolkien lore. I guess this is more of a setting question because it doesn't really matter mechanically.

- Finally, if your goal is to increase an entire tier, that's going to be really tough. I have just enough experience with the CR system to know that monsters without a lot of special abilities need to have tremendous damage and hit points to get into even mid-level CRs. Your Gargantuan constrictor is roughly CR 8, and he's a giant sack of hit points, and the base creature is already CR 2.

So my question is: can you apply this template twice. Your Dire Wolf is in the CR 1-2 range. If we dire it again, a Dire Dire Wolf winds up with 219 hit points and 3 attacks at 22 damage each, for roughly CR 10. That... actually seems like it could work. I do think we would need better terminology than Dire Dire. ;} Or it might be better to phrase it as a whole new template. "Primal Beast"?