Reducing tiefling to ECL 0

Ruined · Aug 19, 2003

Hello all. I was wondering if anyone had made a weaker variant of tiefling that was ECL 0 instead of +1. The current tiefling, a la the SRD is:

-- +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma.
—Medium size.
—A tiefling’s base land speed is 30 feet.
—Darkvision out to 60 feet.
—Racial Skills: Tieflings have a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide checks.
—Racial Feats: A tiefling gains feats according to its class levels.
—Special Attacks (see above): Darkness.
—Special Qualities (see above): Resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5.
—Automatic Languages: Common, Infernal. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc.
—Favored Class: Rogue.
—Level adjustment +1.

I have some ideas involving the trimming of the special attacks and qualities, and maybe reducing the overall stat bonuses. But of course, I'm looking to see what the community would do.

Thanks!

Ferret · Aug 19, 2003

A rough idea

-- +2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma.
—Medium size.
—A tiefling’s base land speed is 30 feet.
—Darkvision out to 60 feet.
—Racial Skills: Tieflings have a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide checks.
—Racial Feats: A tiefling gains feats according to its class levels.
—Special Attacks (see above): Darkness.
—Automatic Languages: Common, Infernal. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc.
—Favored Class: Rogue.
—Level adjustment +0.

This makes them a little weak I think.

comrade raoul · Aug 19, 2003

If you can help it, it's probably a bad idea to give bonuses to one or more of the three mental statistics for LA 0 races. The reason is that dedicated spellcasters tend to value the key ability for their spellcasting significantly more than any ability score, to the point that some players may see an LA 0 race with a mental ability bonus to be a basically obligatory race for their casting character.

As far as the LA 0 tiefling goes, I'd suggest:

+2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.
Medium size.
A tiefling's base land speed is 60 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Racial skills: Tieflings have a +2 racial bonus to Bluff and Hide checks.
Special attacks: Darkness (see above).
Special qualities: One of the following resistances, determined randomly at character creation: cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5.
Racial feats: A tiefling gains feats according to its class levels.
Automatic Languages: Common, Infernal. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc.
Favored class: rogue.

As it stands now, the tiefling is probably balanced with the 3.5e dwarf on the strong end of LA 0. If you wanted to balance a tiefling with, say, a human or elf, I'd drop the darkness ability.

SteelDraco · Aug 19, 2003

Really, the big thing that makes them ECL +1 is that they're Outsiders, not humanoids. This makes them immune to a number of low-level spells - Charm Person and Hold Person in particular. You'd want to drop one of the stat bonuses, too. I'd suggest Dex +2, Cha -2 - the Int bonus doesn't jibe very well with me. A weaker spell-like ability might also be appropriate, if you wanted to lower the ECL to +0.

reapersaurus · Aug 19, 2003

comrade raoul said:
If you can help it, it's probably a bad idea to give bonuses to one or more of the three mental statistics for LA 0 races. The reason is that dedicated spellcasters tend to value the key ability for their spellcasting significantly more than any ability score, to the point that some players may see an LA 0 race with a mental ability bonus to be a basically obligatory race for their casting character.

Bad reasoning IMO.
(no offense)

With that approach, than all LA 0 racial adjustments are unbalancing and not a good idea, since there is always SOME class that wants one stat more than another.

For example, Fighters like CON.
Dwarves get +2 CON, -2 CHA (a stat they don't care about).

I don't yet see being an obligatory race for melee types...

Technik4 · Aug 19, 2003

I agree with comrade_raoul. A +2 Charisma shouts for bards, sorcerors, and paladins to apply, similarly a +2 wisdom would call out for monks, druids, and clerics. Int is arguably the least abusable, since only wizards use it for their class abilities, but it may tempt rogues (for the skill points) or potential duelists as well.

By contrast if you don't give ANY mental attributes then all bonuses are physical. So dwarves, half-orcs, elves, gnomes, and halflings all have physical bonuses. The ones you typically see as fighters are the ones with physical bonuses but mental penalties. The neutral ability races (human and half-elf) are useful (or would be in the half-elfs case) because of the bonus feat which, especially for a 1st level character, is huge.

I'm not sure I explained it, but I can see very well why core races don't give bonuses to mental attributes.

Technik

comrade raoul · Aug 19, 2003

reapersaurus said:
Bad reasoning IMO.
(no offense)

With that approach, than all LA 0 racial adjustments are unbalancing and not a good idea, since there is always SOME class that wants one stat more than another.

For example, Fighters like CON.
Dwarves get +2 CON, -2 CHA (a stat they don't care about).

I don't yet see being an obligatory race for melee types...

None taken.

You may, however, have misinterpreted my argument. It's been my experience -- and I could certainly be wrong about this -- that even though all classes value some stats more than others, dedicated spellcasters -- wizards or sorcerers to a greater extent than clerics or druids* -- value their primary casting stat much more than they value anything else. Granted, wizards and sorcerers also don't mind good scores in Dex and Con (they need to stay alive like everyone else, of course), but I think these stats play second fiddle to Int or Cha (depending on whether you're into prepared or spontaneous spells) to a very large margin. I find that such a character, when making an "even" choice between a primary spellcasting stat and another stat, will almost always favor the spellcasting stat.

Melee types are much more complicated: while Str and Con are the two most important stats, Dex also matters as do, to lesser extents, Int (for Combat Expertise) and Wis (for all-important Will saves), and neither Str or Con in itself is so important that better scores in such a stat justify anything else. In short, fighters like Con, but they also like Str and Dex and extra feats. That is, the reason choosing an LA 0 race for melee characters is interesting (or was interesting, before the 3.5e über-dwarf) is that the elf's Dexterity, the dwarf's Constitution, the half-orc's Strength, or the human's bonus feat are all comparably desirable for melee types, and you have to choose between them.

My contention is that the choice would be much less interesting if there were an LA 0 race with a bonus to Int or Cha. Consider this -- if a wizard got a choice between being a human, with a bonus feat and more skills, or an elf, with nice +2 Dex and bow proficiency -- and an ECL 0 tiefling with +2 Int (which, of course, made him better at the thing he was most interested at being good at), which do you think he'd choose? If you don't think the choice is really clear, I think our disagreement may just be irresolvable.

* Because clerics and druids aren't the "nothing but casting" characters that sorcerers and wizards are, stat choices for them are a bit more complicated. Wisdom remains key, of course, but both clerics and druids are much more likely to mix it up in melee than their arcane counterparts, and as such are more interested in the physical stats.

Ruined · Aug 20, 2003

Thanks for the replies. I'm going with something very close to what comrade raoul posted (and also removing any chance of becoming an outsider). The player wants the class more out of RP flavor than any perceived bonus, so I'm happy to arrange it some for him.

Camarath · Aug 21, 2003

comrade raoul said:
[*]Special qualities: One of the following resistances, determined randomly at character creation: cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5.

Typically elemental resistance is not found in LA +0 creatures.

comrade raoul said:
[*]A tiefling's base land speed is 60 feet.

I assume this is an error and that you meant 30ft.

Viktyr Gehrig · Aug 21, 2003

I left Tiefling at ECL +1 and changed their Charisma penalty to an equivalent bonus. Haven't seen any problems from it. (Aasimar get +2 STR to compensate.)

One of my houserules includes changing the ability mods of several races, and I have three races receiving a mental bonus-- for the Elf and Gnome, I feel this is balanced because their FC is a spellcaster with a different casting stat, and in the Half-Elf's case because they are weak, anyway.