D&D 5E Are powergamers a problem and do you allow them to play in your games?

Kobold Boots said:

[MENTION=277]jasper[/MENTION]

Replying to you this way as your quote tags are messed up so I'd rather be clear than sort that out.

1. Talking is never the best first idea with any problem or most situations. Figuring out the problem is. Reason: Talk without data is opinion and generally a waste of time.
2. If you don't like the person you're gaming with, that's the problem. The power gaming is secondary.
3. If you do like the person you're gaming with and he or she is a power gamer, then the solution is pretty easy. Do the stats, scale the encounters, you're done.
4. Best advice to DMs who think they're scaling things without doing the stats is, "Don't trust your gut" it got you in trouble in the first place and is why you're having the problem.

Nuff said here because I offered help and you replied back with something silly, so I'm done with you.

Be well
KB

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Blue said:

I agree with this pretty strongly. Especially the shift in focus from "powergaming" to "disruptive behavior". Any disruptive behavior is, well, disruptive. Powergaming can be but is not inherently disruptive. For example, if everyone at the table has well optimized characters, it's not disruptive. If a character makes a highly optimized support character (or defensive in some earlier editions of D&D) which gives other characters MORE of a chance to shine, likely that's also not disruptive.

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lowkey13 said:

So, here's the thing- and I don't mean to single you out, but this was a reply to my comment. I've reviewed the various comments on the thread, and most of them seem to miss the point entirely. "Powergaming" (mix-maxing, optimization, munchkining, whatever you want to call it) is a playing preference. And it's fine. But just because it's fine, doesn't mean that everyone else has to accept it. I can like chocolate ice cream, and you can like butter pecan, and we can both like ice cream, but just because you like butter pecan doesn't mean I have to, and it doesn't mean that you get to order butter pecan ice cream for me and make me eat it.

It's this way with many thing. Some table prefer Theater of the Mind (ToTM), some prefer grid (some use a mix). There's no "wrong" here. But what is wrong is if a person goes to a table that enjoys grid and refuses to play that way. Ignores the grid and keeps saying, "Yeah, I'm just going to keep doing it my head, y'all. Describe it to me."

Or PvP. There are tables that believe this is a more fun way to play. More power to them! But if you're at a table that doesn't want to play like that, you don't get to attack other PCs. Or, you don't get to rationalize it by saying, "Well, I'm not killing other PCs, I'm just scheming against them and undermining them at every opportunity ... so it's all good, man, so I play like I want and it's the DM's responsibility to make sure it all works."

If you turn this around, it becomes more clear. Imagine a table where people truly enjoy powergaming. Where everyone min-maxes to the best of their ability. And one player doesn't. Not only does he not do this, he deliberately makes bizarre choices, because ... reasons. "I wanna play an unarmored fighter with high intelligence and low dexterity and strength, who uses a dagger one-handed as his melee weapon." You can talk to this guy, you can assist him, but if he persists in this, it breaks the social compact of the table.

What can be frustrating when reading these comments (not yours, necessarily, but the aggregate of the comments on this thread and others) is that there are those who don't grok this. Who keep retreating to the same arguments to insist that they should be allowed to play the way they want regardless of the desires of the rest of the table. Which ... isn't cool. If I play at a min-max table, I min-max. I don't insist that the play my preferred style. I don't come up with arguments about the DM accommodating my playstyle. If it's that big of an issue for me, I find a new table, or I reach an accommodation (we play this way this time, but can we play a one-shot, or a campaign, a different way next time?).

Now, I can understand the basis for the argument- no one likes to hear that their preferred playing style isn't preferred by everyone. But unlike many choices, powergaming (optimization) seems to be the one example where (some) people insist that their playing style should be allowed to dictate the preferences of everyone else. You rarely see long and contentious threads where people insist that they be allowed to employ grid combat in a ToTM campaign, after all.

TLDR; there is nothing wrong with powergaming. But the "jerkiness" aspect comes in when people continue to insist that their preferred playstyle is more important than what the rest of the table wants, and that is the case regardless of the issue.

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GameOgre said:

THIS thread was started with the OP saying Power gaming isn't a style of play but disruptive behavior and going on to give a example with no details about another character more effective than him that ruined the game.

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Corpsetaker said:

I'm not talking about someone who arranges their states to fit the race and class perfectly, I'm talking about those that really go out of their way to find every game breaking combo they can find.

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Flexor the Mighty! said:

Games that require a player to not take the most optimal choice since it will break the game should be exposed for poor design.

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Saelorn said:

On the other end of the spectrum, games that require a player to make the most optimal choice should also be exposed for poor design. There's no real choice when there's only one correct answer.

That is neither here nor there, though.

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