Monk build: I'd appreciate your thoughts and any advice.

High Elvish Monk

STR 16
Dex 15 +2 = 17
Con 12 -2 = 10
Int 13
Wis 16
Cha 8

Feats
Mnk 1: Improved Grapple
1st: Combat Expertise
Mnk 2: Combat Reflexes
3rd: Exotic Weapon Spiked Chain
Mnk 6: Improved Trip
6th: Improved Disarm
9th: Expert Tactician? I'm not sure after this...

I was originaly going to get spiked chain at 1st but then noticed that the pre-req was BaB +1, bugger. So I decided to take Combat Expertise at 1st even though I couldn't use it till 2nd. The only reason I picked this feat up is to get both Improved Trip and Disarm.

Maxed out tumble, balance, jump. I'll keep the sneak skills up to but not as high. Some cc heal (acupuncture).

The abilities were rolled with 4d6 drop the lowest arange to suit ammounts to a 37pt buy

My thoughts:
I aranged the ability scores like this for the following reasons;

1. The biggest problem I see with monks is that they are so dependant upon ability scores. I put the 16 in STR because this will always help him hit AND cause damage. I think that STR is more important to a monk than DEX because there is no way for monks to increase damage potential (specialization, favored prey, sneak attack, rage; only power attack but monks have a hard time hitting as it is so I don't think power attack is a viable feat for monks). If they have a super high DEX and low STR they HAVE to spend a feat on Weapon Finesse which I think is a waste of a precious feat.

2. I put a 16 in WIS because the AC bonus stays with you unless you are immobile. In some instances you will loose your dex bonus to AC but not WIS. Also any WIS buffing items we find will more than likely go to the CLERIC who will make much better use of them. I find it much more likely to get DEX enhancing items. Plus the bonus to WILL SAVES and SPOT, LISTEN are very helpfull.

Tactics: The 3.5 monk seems to be designed for the spiked chain. It has reach, does decent damage, is easier to enchant than a staff, can be used for tripping and give +2 bonus to disarms. I figured it is well worth the cost of the feat. Too bad I can't get it at 1st level! With a high DEX, Combat Relfexes, and Improved Trip and Improved Disarm all at range, you can use your first attack to make a Improved Trip (Touch Attack) with a very good chance of success, followed by another free attack at +4 (prone) for a disarm atttempt (+2 spiked chainchain, +4 Feat I.D., +4 Prone) total +10 on the disarm. If the opponent tries to pick up his weapon or stand up I get an AoO, upto 4 per round, follow up attacks to deal damage normally. This will keep him unarmed and on the ground.

For other opponents and spell casters monks make the best use out of the Improved Grappling Feat. Having a high STR and the +4 to grapple checks will be very advantageous, also the attack roll to initiate a grapple is a touch attack. Good against all manner of opponents, and the damage is lethal and monks do thier unarmed damage which is higher than anyone else.

I'm not a big fan of stunning attacks. It sucks at low levels, and you only get so many. Plus the DC is usually rather easy to beat if you have a halfway decent FORT Save. I think Improved Grapple is a better choice and can get more use.

I'm not sure about monsters though. This is where I come up alittle weak. If I can't grapple them and can't use the spiked chain to greatest effect, then I'm rather stuck. I have a +3 to hit and damage which is good but I'm rather at a loss for what feats and strategies to pick up after 6th. I'm pretty much limited to the core rules.

Any ideas or critisizms? What do you think about this build?

A couple of problems I see with your build:

1. In my opinion, CON is the most important stat of any character who will routinely enter melee. Therefore, I strongly suggest you swap CON and INT scores. This will give you an Int of 12 (still +1) and your CON will slip to 11 after racial modifiers. I strongly suggest that you pump your 4th level ability increase into CON, giving you 6 extra hp.

2. The Spiked Chain approach is interesting and not one I've seen before the monk. However, there are several problems I see,

(a) You are giving up a precious feat simply to use it
(b) A Spiked Chain is not a monk weapon and therefore cannot be used with flurry of blows.
(c) You are discounting the monk's main advantage, unarmed combat. After a few levels, the average damage dealt by your fists will exceed that of the spiked chain. Also, you will not be able to take advantage of Ki Strike.

3. If you really want to go ahead with this build anyway, I strongly suggest multi-classing into a martial class. It sound like you are most interested into the low-level monk abilities to boost your combat potential. The first problem, of course, is that you are an elf. I would suggest a human build instead and multi-class into ranger. This will give you a good selection of skills, excellent BAB, two good saves, and favored enemy to boost your combat potential.

I plan to stay in monk.

I might change my feat choices after going over the rules.

I thought spike chain was very good for a monk: reach, +6 for disarms (+2 chain, +4 2-handed weapon), 1.5 x's Str damage. Plus most critters & npc's won't know how to use it if i drop it.

Against humanoinds my tactic was going to be this (assuming 6th level)

round 1
They move into my threatened area provoking an AoO.
AoO: Improved Trip touch attack at +11 (+4 BaB, +3 STR, +4 I.T.) If this succedes which as it is a touch attack it should most of the time, then disarm +24 (+4 BaB, +3 STR, +2 Spiked chain, +4 2-handed weapon, +4 oponent is prone +4 I.D.) or +17 if I don't get Improved Disarm. Unless I roll really bad they will be prone and disarmed. If they stand up I get an AoO (4 per round). If they pick up their weapon it is a +17 or +24 roll to disarm again as they are still prone.

On my regular attacks I can drop the chain FA take a 5' step and flurry, or flurry with shuriekns from range. Or grapple. Depends on the opponent.

Or I get 1 attack with the chain again. +11 hit / 2d4+4 damage.

I figured with this I minimize the monks disadvantages as the trip attack is a touch attak it negates my low BaB, and puts the opponent into my domain as being a better unarmed fighter/grappler. I can control the battle field this way. Once I get a good way to enlarge myself it is better!

I thought this was worth the feat for the spiked chain.

I may not take Combat Expertise and Improved disarm now that I think about it. I don't really care for C.E. With a high tumble, and total defense I can kick AC up, and I don't really need Improved Disarm. I won't provoke an AoO by disarming from 10' away (unless they have reach) and if they are already prone I don't really need the +4 to the attempt.

I really hated the con penalty to elves but i plan to buff my con with my level increases. My scores were originaly 16 STR 17 DEX 10 CON 12 INT 16 WIS 10 CHA. My DM was going to allow me to drop another score to raise my INT to 13 so I could get combat expertise at 1st level at a 2 for 1 cost. Now that I might not take the C.E. and I.D. feats I probably wont drop the CHA.

So my new scores would be: 16 STR, 17 DEX, 10 CON, 12 INT, 16 WIS ,10 CHA

Now I am trying to decide on other feats to take. Any ideas?

Monk is easily the hardest class to choose when to stop taking levels. I mean it seems like any level you stop at, there are more benefits to have by staying in "just 1 more level", which never stops, all the way to 20. So, I'll stick with your original intention, straight monk.

As gfunk said, you are severely neglecting CON, the basis of anyone who wants to tango in melee. I'm assuming you are looking for a 9th level build, so here goes:

High Elf Mnk9

STR 12
Dex 19
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 16
Cha 8

[I switched Str and Con around. This way you get about 18 more hp, +2 on Fort Saves at the cost of -2 to hit, -2 damage. Imo, your guy was more about disarming, grappling, tripping than straight up damage, and its better to live to do those things another round than stick it to the enemy for a couple more points of damage. I put both ability increases in dex. Since you aren't really pressing things like Stunning Fist, your Wis modifier takes second fiddle to dex, after-all dex boosts Weapon Finesse, Initiative, Ranged Attacks, and Reflex Saves (you have Imp Evasion, might as well make sure it comes in handy). I would put the next increase in Dex and the 2 after that in Wis.]

Feats
Mnk 1: Improved Grapple
1st: Combat Expertise
Mnk 2: Combat Reflexes
3rd: Exotic Weapon Spiked Chain
Mnk 6: Improved Trip
6th: Weapon Finesse
9th: Improved Disarm

[Since we are going for more of a Dex-build, I added Wpn Finesse at 6th which bumped Imp Disarm to 9th. Expert Tactician is still a good choice for a higher level feat, as is Imp. Initiative (if somewhat lackluster).]

Tactics:

Ok, things get tricky. Spiked Chain is your friend and primary weapon. With Weapon Finesse and a Dex +2 item we are looking at +12/+7 BAB, not counting the chains enhancement beyond masterwork. The chain should be both magical and made of a special material (Not Adamantine if you plan on riding monk till the end). Probably Cold Iron.

Keep in mind you are not in the fight to do damage, you are there to lend support to the rogue with flanks, to trip monsters (when possible), disarm enemies (when possible), and to drop your chain and grapple wizards. Eventually Spring Attack will be a nice path to follow, as with your extreme speed and range you can make excellent use of it. Don't try and be a hero and stick around for a lot of full-attacks (you only get 2 anyway), stay moving, tumble in for an attack (or disarm or trip attempt) and next round tumble out. Be in position to take advantage of AoOs (and remember you can use your AoO to trip the enemy, gaining yet another attack (and possibly a third, with Expert tactician)).

While you should try to stay in Spiked Chain reach range, I would carry a Mwk Lt X-bow and some decent bolts just in case. Your dex bonus is sufficient to give you a decent attack bonus with it, and you never know when you may not be able to get to the enemy (yes, even the monk with 60 ft. movement).

Your last resort should be your fists. It can still be a nice surprise (and good damage, 1d10) and works especially well in weird situations (jail, bar fight, etc) where your party isn't at full strength. It also makes you a good candidate to infiltrate somewhere as you don't need your weapon to be with you. Also, thanks to 3.5 Weapon Finesse, you still use your dex modifier.

Other good weapons to look-out for are Kama, Nunchaku, Sai, and Sianham - all are light and therefore use your Dex mod instead of Str mod.

GFunk is right that the Spiked Chain doesn't quite mesh with the phb 3.5 monk, however an enlightened DM may allow you to take a feat that allows a weapon to be considered a monk weapon, at which point 2 of your feats will have paid off big time.

Down the Road:

While it is extremely tough to gauge when to cut off the monk levels, I think level 13 is a good (if not round) number. You have just acquired Abundant Step (at 12th) and SR 23 (at 13th). For comparison's sake, that SR is better than "Mantle of Spell Resistance" which is valued at 90,000 (and only has SR 21). Your fists are also as powerful as greatswords and while you didn't make it to Quivering Palm or Adamantine Ki Strike, you have a lot of powerful monk abilities (+40 Speed, +2 Inherent AC, Wis to AC, Greater Flurry of Attacks, Improved Evasion, etc).

So what's next? Well, fighter levels will let you round out your feat selection, paladin offers a holy path (although keep in mind, your cha sucks), and barbarians offer a buff bad-ass path. I would also keep rogue in mind, if you prefer sneakiness (although the stacking of evasions and never reaching a rogue "special ability" hurts - the rogue's Crippling Strike would be especially nice for this monk).

7 levels of a fighter class (or a combination) offer the best option, allowing your BAB to reach +16 at level 20 (4 attacks, or 6 with Greater Flurry of Blows). Taking 6 levels of fighter will boost your damage (allowing for WF and WS) as well as possibly getting you Whirlwind Attack by 20th level. 7 barbarian levels will net you a few rages per day, culminating in DR 1/-. Paladin levels offer quite a few benefits, but would be difficult with your low Cha.

Anyway, I hope some of this was insightful. Have fun!

Technik

It's a good start with what you have, and if you feel that the monk is so stat dependant, pick up Weapon Finesse: Unarmed as well as Iron Fists. It's two feats, but it will equal out the attack and damage bonuses you are worried about.

IMO the monk is a hard PC to build simple because 3 stats are important: Str, Dex & Wis. Sink your points into them, and try to keep your Int and Con non-negative. If you are looking to be a bane to magic-users, your choice of heavy Str and Improved Grapple will be great, as unarmed damage can be dealt to them each round you have them pinned.

On the other hand, you could go for a 'specialty' monk that is adding on feats to do a main trick, like Great Throw (handy in 3.5, as standing from prone gives you an AoO; toss them on their turn, then flurry on yours at +4), Grappling Block (turns those hits into possible disarms, again on their turn), or some of the other good ones found in OA.

You could go for the defensive monk that takes a level in Wizard to get Mage Armor and Shocking Grasp, or even three levels so you can get Enlarge. Plus you can add on a level of two of Fighter to get the extra feats so you can do the cool tricks earlier.

My 4th level monk build turned out to be F2/W1/M1 so he could be defensive and have all of the feats necessary for the 'trick' feats. Right now he has Great Throw and all of the prerequisites; next level he will pick up Deflect Arrows (monk feat), and the level after he will get Improved Grapple. Three levels after that he will pick up Improved Disarm and Grappling Block at the same time. His stats from a 32-point buy are: Str=14, Dex=14, Con=12, Int=14, Wis=17(+1 for 4th level), Cha=8. Skills are also maxed out on Tumble, Jump, Listen, Hide, & Move Silently. The extra Int really helps with this too.

He won't be a powerhouse, but monks aren't meant to be. His nick-name will soon be Bouncer, as he will be tossing people around, and once his damage starts to go up, the Improved Grapple with tumble and monk speed will really come in handy to deal with any main bad guy while the rest of the party mops up the henchmen.

Your stats seem pretty good. You'll need to get some kind of con/hit point increase at later levels but other than that, your stats look pretty good.

However, your feat choice is rather strange.

As a monk, you don't really suffer from the "don't threaten at 5 feet" disadvantage of most reach weapons. Just drop the weapon and use your fists. (From a damage dealing POV, you're actually better off that way). Since your strength is similar to your dex, you don't really benefit from weapon finesse. (Even if you increase your dex with stat increases (and I'd recommend doing so no more than once--you get more out of wis or str), weapon finesse doesn't do you much more good than weapon focus). And, even though most of your feats are focussed on reach weapon and melee combat, you selected improved grapple (which has little synergy with your other feats) in place of stunning fist (which has great synergy with Expert Tactician).

I would be tempted to select Wood Elf instead of High Elf as your race (get an extra +2 str and -2 int).

It would preclude Combat Expertise until you could afford a +2 headband of int but it would increase your damage output and give you ranger as a favored class.

That way, you could start your career as a ranger (picking up martial weapon proficiencies while you're there). So your career path could look like:

Rgr 1: Track, Combat Reflexes
Rgr 1/Mnk 1: Stunning Fist
Rgr 1/Mnk 2: Deflect Arrows, Weapon Focus: Guisarm or Improved Grab (or whatever else suits your fancy)
Rgr 1/Mnk 3
Rgr 1/Mnk 4
Rgr 1/Mnk 5: Expert Tactician
Rgr 1/Mnk 6: Improved Trip
Rgr 1/Mnk 7
Rgr 1/Mnk 8: Open feat (possibly combat expertise if you want it)

The higher strength gives you more damage and makes you more likely to trip your opponents.

Stunning Fist is very useful against mages (against mages with bodyguards, it's better than improved grapple), and will have great synergy with expert tactician at higher levels when you will have more stunning attacks than you know what to do with and can get a free expert tactician attack whenever the stunning attack works.

Using a guisarme instead of a spiked chain gives you more damaging criticals but retains your ability to trip your opponents on AoOs. Since you'll probably want to use your unarmed attacks at 5 feet anyway, you don't really lose much of the spiked chain's versatility (but the ability to use a greatsword might come in handy some day--that's also versatility).

And if you decide to alter the plan a bit, (Combat Reflexes as Mnk 2 instead of clvl 1, you could potentially have Spring Attack at level 9 as well. . . and Spring Attack would be very very very useful for a low HP, high movement reach weapon wielding monk with combat reflexes).

FluidDragon said:

On my regular attacks I can drop the chain FA take a 5' step and flurry, or flurry with shuriekns from range. Or grapple. Depends on the opponent.

Click to expand...

Keep in mind that you don't actually have to drop the chain - you can keep it in your hands to take attacks of opportunity with, and fight unarmed using your feet.

Have you considered taking your first level as fighter? I think it would really help this build to have access to the spiked chain as soon as possible.

After doing some thinking last night, Thanks for the tip Meepo about kicking and not dropping the Spiked Chain! I thought about rearanging the abilities:

str 15
dex 18 (swap str and dex rolls)
con 14
int 12
wis 12 (swap con and wis rolls)
cha 10

Note I was allowed to bump int to 13 by spending 2 points from another ability to pick up combat expertise but I might not pick up combat expertise or improved disarm anymore, they seem redundant.

This gives me over my old aray:
pros:
+2 hit points/ level
+2 fort save
+1 ref save
+1 AoO after 2nd lvl with combat reflexes
cons:
-1 hit
-1 dam
-1 ac
-2 will save
-2 listen/spot

I am thinking of making this change because since I am not taking stunning fist WIS is not as important as none of my class abilities are tied to it besides AC which I can get from dex and item boosts.

I'm sticking with High Elf and no multi classing for awhile at leat 13th level. (Campaign Reasons) After that I might multi into ranger or fighter as I'm not a big fan of monk abilities after 13th level. My dm isn't to keen on multi classing and life is easier when the dm likes your pc.

Although 1st level as fighter does seem very good.

-fd