Paladin vs Fighter/Cleric (Previously: Is Turn Undead useful for a Paladin?)

At 4th level, when a paladin first gets his ability to Turn Undead, he needs a 13 on his turning check to turn a 2HD skeleton (CR1), a 19 to turn a ghoul (CR1), a 4HD zombie (CR1), a 4HD skeleton (CR2) or a wight (CR3), and a 22 to turn a shadow (CR3). He has no chance at all to affect any CR4 undead.

At higher levels, only the bodak (CR8) and the devourer (CR11) can be turned by a paladin whose level is the same as the creature’s CR, and even then, he has to roll a 22 on his turning check to do so.

A paladin has to be one level higher than the creature's CR in order to turn (on a 22) a vampire spawn (CR4), a wraith (CR5), a spectre (CR7) or a classed LA 0 humanoid with the ghost, lich or vampire template.

A paladin has to be two levels higher than the creature's CR in order to turn (on a 22) an allip (CR3), a ghast (CR3), a mummy (CR5) or a nightwing (CR14)

A paladin has to be four levels higher than the creature's CR in order to turn (on a 22) a dread wraith (CR11) a and nightwalker (CR16), and five levels higher than a mohrg's CR of 8 in order to turn it.

Based on the above, is a paladin's Turn Undead ability useful? Most of the time, it can only affect an undead creature whose CR is below the paladin’s level, and even then, the chances of success are not high. What do you think?

Please do not bring in the Amulet of Undead Turning, the Improved Turning feat or any divine feats from Defenders of the Faith as I believe a class ability should be useful in its own right without requiring a feat or a magic item to do so.

It doesn't matter what level you are, incorporeal stat and level draining undead are annoying. Sure, you have to be 16th level to destroy CR5 wraiths (3 per turning attempt) and about 10th to turn 2 of them but if undead are acting as buffer monsters in a larger encounter it can be invaluable.

No, Turn Undead for a Paladin is almost useless.

It's (almost) only use is as a fuel for Divine Feats, and for use against undead that are WAY below his CR.

A paladin's primary ability should be Charisma.

If a paladin has 16 in Charisma (a low score for a paladin at 4th level), he has a +3 bonus to that turn check. This means that on average, the paladin can assume to turn 2HD monsters realitively easily. (55% chance).

Also, given their high Charisma, a paladin is more likely to affect greater numbers of undead, with a successful turn, than an equal level cleric. He also has a greater number of turning attempts with which to try to get rid of these monsters.

So a 10th level paladin with 22 Charisma turns 9HD monsters on an average roll, and affects 2d6+13, whereas the similar level Cleric with 12 in Charisma turns up to 10HD monsters with an average roll, and affects 2d6+11.

The reason the paladin concentrates on Charisma as their prime stat is that it influences so many of their abilities, and is especially useful if you allow them access to the divine feats in the DotF.

There's also an item in the 3.5e DMG that boosts your Turn Undead check by +4... now I'm thinking that it's aimed right at Paladins.

-- Nifft

I see the function of Turn Undead for any turner as zapping the hordes of buffer undead - as DM if my BBEG got turned I'd be quite annoyed.

In one more level, the equally leveled paladin will be as good as my cleric is at turning (as I'm persuing a PRC and he isn't). I don't think turning is useless at all for Paladins, unless you expect the onus of it to lie entirely on a 1-20 Single classed Cleric.

The reason the paladin concentrates on Charisma as their prime stat is that it influences so many of their abilities, and is especially useful if you allow them access to the divine feats in the DotF.

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I know he said "Don't bring the divine feats from DotF into this"...

... but let's not forget the divine feats from DotF

Ten rounds of combined Divine Shield and Divine Might for +10 attack and +20 damage on a Shield Bash (doubled with the Shield Charge feat)... half a dozen times a day... are Not To Be Sneered At.

-Hyp.

Actually, in 3.0 where the paladin got Turn undead one level earlier, the best turners in the party were paladins due to their significantly higher charisma.

re

I found the Paladin's turning ability pretty damn good for eliminating piles of yard trash. Even at high level, a team of incorporeal undead or low level undead like zombies and skeletons can be real annoying to wade through. A cleric and a paladin can usually destroy them at a phenomenal rate.

Just as everyone said, it would be only marginally useful without the divine feats from DotF. I love those feats. Divine Might is the best feat in DotF. There is nothing like channeling positive energy into your sword to hammer away at the bad guys. Its like the temporary Paladin version of Weapon specialization.