L
lowkey13
Guest
*Deleted by user*
jaelis
Oh this is where the title goes?
Well, multiclassing as a whole is optional. So if a DM wants to prohibit some particular combination they can.
But IMO there's no basis in the rules themselves for prohibiting cleric/warlock, in particular. And I don't think you should for purely story reasons, at least not without giving the player an chance to make the story work.
But IMO there's no basis in the rules themselves for prohibiting cleric/warlock, in particular. And I don't think you should for purely story reasons, at least not without giving the player an chance to make the story work.
Arilyn
Hero
It would be an unusual combination, but I can think of ways that it could make sense. It all depends on the particular deity and patron. As long as the player has a backstory that makes for an interesting story, or at least a plausible story, I'd allow it. Sometimes the weirdest combinations make perfectly viable and interesting characters.
Leatherhead
Possibly a Idiot.
Warlocks being able to forge a pact with a god is the worst thing about their design in this edition. And that's including how they mechanically eat into the Sorcerers potential design space, and serve as the most bang-for-your-buck multiclass dip in the entire game.
However, there is one thing that you have overlooked in this deathmatch:
Theoretically speaking, your Cleric can be a non-willing participant in their relationship to their god, which gives them the most interesting story potential out of any of the "Touched by something else" Classes. Paladins have to devote themselves, Warlocks have to negotiate and possibly double-cross later, and Sorcerers are born with it. But Clerics can just wake up one day after being normal for their entire lives only to have some watery tart throw a sword or something at them and suddenly become a conduit for divine power without any consent. And it's perhaps one of the most unsettling ideas for a character that you could come up with.
It's this kind of relationship that makes the Warlock/Cleric multiclass possible, from both ends. You are either someone who is trying to escape your fate via any means possible, or someone who press ganged after they were recruited by something else.
However, there is one thing that you have overlooked in this deathmatch:
Theoretically speaking, your Cleric can be a non-willing participant in their relationship to their god, which gives them the most interesting story potential out of any of the "Touched by something else" Classes. Paladins have to devote themselves, Warlocks have to negotiate and possibly double-cross later, and Sorcerers are born with it. But Clerics can just wake up one day after being normal for their entire lives only to have some watery tart throw a sword or something at them and suddenly become a conduit for divine power without any consent. And it's perhaps one of the most unsettling ideas for a character that you could come up with.
It's this kind of relationship that makes the Warlock/Cleric multiclass possible, from both ends. You are either someone who is trying to escape your fate via any means possible, or someone who press ganged after they were recruited by something else.
Satyrn
First Post
There's an interesting bit in the PH warlock's description where it say that some warlock pacts might create a relationship between the warlock and patron that is akin to a cleric and god, but most others are like an apprentice and master.
The warlock writeup also encourages the player to work with the DM to specify what their individual pact entails, what their relationship with the patron actually is.
Likewise, the cleric class prompts the player to consider their character's relationship to their god.
I think that determing those relationships will determine whether any individual warlock/cleric is acceptable to the god and patron. But that's all in game, story stuff.
It would be weird for a player of this warlock/cleric to create a relationship with his patron and god that couldn't work, but I guess if he did so I'd rule it impossible - well, actually I'd tweak the relationships so they would work, since the PH encourages the player and me to work together to make it work.
Then, by the rules, I've never seen anything that says the cleric/warlock multiclass is prohibited.
The warlock writeup also encourages the player to work with the DM to specify what their individual pact entails, what their relationship with the patron actually is.
Likewise, the cleric class prompts the player to consider their character's relationship to their god.
I think that determing those relationships will determine whether any individual warlock/cleric is acceptable to the god and patron. But that's all in game, story stuff.
It would be weird for a player of this warlock/cleric to create a relationship with his patron and god that couldn't work, but I guess if he did so I'd rule it impossible - well, actually I'd tweak the relationships so they would work, since the PH encourages the player and me to work together to make it work.
Then, by the rules, I've never seen anything that says the cleric/warlock multiclass is prohibited.
MechaTarrasque
Hero
So far god is not a type in 5e (see Tiamat's stat block), so if most gods are fiends or celestials, then there is no reason why a god couldn't make a fiend or celestial warlock. That removes any "mechanical" objection.
There are two questions that present themselves:
1) Why would a god/patron want to make something like this?
2) What happens if the god and patron are not the same (or not allied)?
1) is difficult, since you need someone with good wisdom and charisma scores (and possibly a couple of other good scores). On top of that, clerics have a lot of flexibility, so:
If you need a sneaky cleric, there is trickery domain.
If you need a good striker, there are light and death domains.
And with XGtE, the main "lack" in warlocks that levels in cleric would fix (and honestly you would be better getting levels of bard to fix this), healing, is taken care of. So there isn't a real need for this, but some gods and many patrons are weird, so that can be hand waived.
2) brings up lots of story potential as god and patrons compete for the loyalty of the clericlock and send flunkies to persuade or punish him/her if he/she fails to chose them (or takes too long). This is a gift for DM's, as one player has brought capital P Plot (both carrot and stick) unto the party, with very little opportunity (without DM assistance) to get out from under it (the phrase "A Very Big Quest" comes to mind). Much like the paladin/warlock combo, the player has practically handed the DM Chekov's Gun and begged him/her to use it. And who can turn down that kind of begging?
There are two questions that present themselves:
1) Why would a god/patron want to make something like this?
2) What happens if the god and patron are not the same (or not allied)?
1) is difficult, since you need someone with good wisdom and charisma scores (and possibly a couple of other good scores). On top of that, clerics have a lot of flexibility, so:
If you need a sneaky cleric, there is trickery domain.
If you need a good striker, there are light and death domains.
And with XGtE, the main "lack" in warlocks that levels in cleric would fix (and honestly you would be better getting levels of bard to fix this), healing, is taken care of. So there isn't a real need for this, but some gods and many patrons are weird, so that can be hand waived.
2) brings up lots of story potential as god and patrons compete for the loyalty of the clericlock and send flunkies to persuade or punish him/her if he/she fails to chose them (or takes too long). This is a gift for DM's, as one player has brought capital P Plot (both carrot and stick) unto the party, with very little opportunity (without DM assistance) to get out from under it (the phrase "A Very Big Quest" comes to mind). Much like the paladin/warlock combo, the player has practically handed the DM Chekov's Gun and begged him/her to use it. And who can turn down that kind of begging?
Irda Ranger
First Post
The rules don't prohibit it.
The campaign setting might prohibit it, but this is of course very campaign-specific. If your campaign world has very interventionist, micro-managing deities then it's quite conceivable they'd forbid Cleric-Warlock multiclassing ("No man can serve two masters"). However in a world/setting with more remote/distant deities where clerics can get their powers just by going through the motions of religious practice, then a cleric/warlock could work.
Also, the Great Old One patron specifically considers that the GOO isn't even aware of the Warlock's existence, and that there's no consenting relationship between them at all. That's how I'm playing my current GOO Warlock; he's a devout worshipper of Tymora but being exposed to a Cult's GOO summoning ritual has "tuned" his brain to pick up emanations from the Far Realm, like a shortwave radio that cannot turn off and is listening to conversations in a foreign language from the other side of the world. I doubt I'll ever multi-class my guy into Cleric, but I don't think the rules or the fluff would prohibit it.
The campaign setting might prohibit it, but this is of course very campaign-specific. If your campaign world has very interventionist, micro-managing deities then it's quite conceivable they'd forbid Cleric-Warlock multiclassing ("No man can serve two masters"). However in a world/setting with more remote/distant deities where clerics can get their powers just by going through the motions of religious practice, then a cleric/warlock could work.
Also, the Great Old One patron specifically considers that the GOO isn't even aware of the Warlock's existence, and that there's no consenting relationship between them at all. That's how I'm playing my current GOO Warlock; he's a devout worshipper of Tymora but being exposed to a Cult's GOO summoning ritual has "tuned" his brain to pick up emanations from the Far Realm, like a shortwave radio that cannot turn off and is listening to conversations in a foreign language from the other side of the world. I doubt I'll ever multi-class my guy into Cleric, but I don't think the rules or the fluff would prohibit it.
This poll should really be multi-choice.
No because of rules. Channeling and invocations and TWO types of at-will cantrips and double the spell slots and armor and weapons and, and, and, no, no, no. Frankly, how this is NOT the immediate go to multiclass combo of powergamers is beyond me.
No because of fluff. I get my powers from this god-guy, here...oh, and I'm contracted with this non-god-(probably evil, infernal or worse)-guy other there...and neither of them minds that I'm beholden to and doing the bidding of the other. Sure. Makes complete sense.
AND no because, practically goes without saying, 3e+style multiclassing has been the bane of the game since its introduction.
So, you got an "Other" vote out of me. But that hardly does the atrocity of this hypothetical character justice.
No because of rules. Channeling and invocations and TWO types of at-will cantrips and double the spell slots and armor and weapons and, and, and, no, no, no. Frankly, how this is NOT the immediate go to multiclass combo of powergamers is beyond me.
No because of fluff. I get my powers from this god-guy, here...oh, and I'm contracted with this non-god-(probably evil, infernal or worse)-guy other there...and neither of them minds that I'm beholden to and doing the bidding of the other. Sure. Makes complete sense.
AND no because, practically goes without saying, 3e+style multiclassing has been the bane of the game since its introduction.
So, you got an "Other" vote out of me. But that hardly does the atrocity of this hypothetical character justice.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
As I stated in the other thread, this issue comes down to “why aren’t Warlocks divine casters?” Or, if you’re not a fan of dividing up the magic power sources that way, “why are Clerics and Warlocks separate classes?” That may sound like a silly question, but really think about it. What is the difference between a Warlock and a Cleric of an evil God? Heck, with The Celestial being a thing now, what’s the difference between a Warlock and a Cleric of a good god? This issue ultimately stems from Cleric and Warlock having incredibly similar fluff, with the difference very vaguely defined. They both gain power by doing the bidding of a more powerful entity. So what’s the difference? Is it the nature of the service? Is it the nature of the entity? Is it something else? How you think about the difference between Clerics and Warlocks (if any) will inform how you think about a multiclass combination of the two.
EDIT Because I keep getting people who don’t seem to understand what a rhetorical question is: I don’t care what you think the difference between Clerics and Warlocks is. I didn’t ask because I want it explained to me. The question is meant to be illustrative of the real ambiguity at the root of the question “should Cleric/Warlock multiclassing be possible?” Everyone has their own understanding of the classes and the difference between them, and those understandings feed into their thoughts about multiclassing between the two, whether consciously or not.
EDIT Because I keep getting people who don’t seem to understand what a rhetorical question is: I don’t care what you think the difference between Clerics and Warlocks is. I didn’t ask because I want it explained to me. The question is meant to be illustrative of the real ambiguity at the root of the question “should Cleric/Warlock multiclassing be possible?” Everyone has their own understanding of the classes and the difference between them, and those understandings feed into their thoughts about multiclassing between the two, whether consciously or not.
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Li Shenron
Legend
What if a Cleric's god tells her that she has to make a pact with a patron? For example a good deity forcing her cleric to get a celestial patron who served the deity itself, in order to grow and better serve the cause. Same could happen with an evil deity and fiendish patron, or a nature deity and fey patron, or a crazy deity and GOO patron.
What if the cleric accidentally makes a pact that cannot be easily broken, for example is tricked into signing a contract with an archdevil or bonding with a hex, and the deity doesn't want to abandon her?
What if the pact occurred prior to the character becoming a Cleric? The iconic "sell your soul" pact doesn't require the character any specific behaviour because the price is paid after life, but perhaps the character takes clerical vows exactly in hope it would help her break a pact she regrets, and the deity is pleased and accepts her?
What if the cleric accidentally makes a pact that cannot be easily broken, for example is tricked into signing a contract with an archdevil or bonding with a hex, and the deity doesn't want to abandon her?
What if the pact occurred prior to the character becoming a Cleric? The iconic "sell your soul" pact doesn't require the character any specific behaviour because the price is paid after life, but perhaps the character takes clerical vows exactly in hope it would help her break a pact she regrets, and the deity is pleased and accepts her?
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